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Old 08-20-2017, 12:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
I have LONGED for Atlanta do this, I mean to the point where I almost can't stand that this place DOESN'T have one. I know several of us don't want the road to ruin the golden crescent, and I don't mean just specifically in that northern crescent area either.

Example.. I commute from north Gwinnett. I have to pick up my father from work in Newton County. I personally work in North Fulton AND Gwinnett (I work two jobs). I never commute to Atlanta unless I am taking my mother somewhere. So for me, mass transit wouldn't really help me alot asside from taking a few others cars off the roads I travel (I highly doubt it would be impactful for those roads as well) .. I can't take ANY highways to get to my jobs or my fathers job. It's 100% nerve wrecking streets. Going from North Gwinnett to Newton especially is a pain because it requires me to travel through the entire city of Lawrenceville, SR 20 through Loganville, and SR 81.. Then going to and from North Fulton is a pain because only a few streets cross the Chattahoochee and they're almost always congested. I would KILL for an interstate-grade limited access highway between I-85 / Mall of GA area to I-20 just east of Covington. It would make my commute 10x easier. Then of course going anywhere in North Fulton, or to Cobb would be 10x easier as well and I imagine ALOT of truck drivers (most who only come THROUGH Atlanta but not necessarily stopping here) would be at ease knowing they wouldn't need to see I-285.

Last month, I used I-840 for the first time in my life (It's Nashville's southern by-pass but is so far away from the city you may as well consider it an outer loop) and that road is super rural and no traffic. I know that this road is relatively new, well actually only some sections, others have been in operation for several years now. That road does not have many exits and the few that it does are entirely rural greenscape infact I personally believe it's a well designed road. I personally don't see that route becoming heavily congested within the next two decades.

The same goes for Hwy 99 (Houston's outer loop) - That road is about 200 miles long and about 40ish miles from downtown Houston. Although they planned well ahead and you can see by the design of the road that they can easily widen if it they ever needed to, that route is also mostly entirely rural and seems that it will remain that way for quite some time..

I personally don't believe a well planned outerbypass will EXPLODE with development in the Atlanta area.. the only thing that I can see MIGHT happening is a few outlet malls popping up on it sucking up the traffic from inter-suburb commuters (between Gwinnett and Cobb for example)

I know that Atlanta DOES need work in the mass transit department..and I greatly contend to this... but.. Mass transit won't fix everything.. I know this coming from Chicago... Chicago's transit system is state of the art as far as coverage is concerned, but if I want to go from suburb to suburb then its better to just drive.

I say this again developers and people need to stop moving areas with transportation infustructure there's a lesson that need to be learn,

Ever heard the phrase you want your cake and eat it too, this exactly what it means. The area had bad transportation in the first place. People should had never populated the area But... people still choose anyway at their own risk now they don't want to deal with responsibility for their actions

That Nashville road is bad plan growth, it want become congested but it will become populated and sprawl.

As far Atlanta goes that will explode more sprawl, cheaper land, with new better transportation people will more towards those roads. This is also rewarding bad decisions.

Atlanta is in a handicap to build much more roads, too much residential and commercial areas are blocking or you planning to build in exurbs which will encourage more sprawl.

The issue is you think people are just against roads no... building dozen of roads are not possible itself. Unless Atlanta do something amazing like build tunnels or what stated above.

The best option is to build transit something that is more possible, and for people that want to move to areas with bad roads let them deal with their own choices.

Atlanta has not expanded transit because conservatives politicians lead toward roads, while roads are difficult. Holding on to the idea that Atlanta can build massive amounts of roads has created a stalemate waiting for impossible fantasy instead of doing what is possible. So nothing is getting done.
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Old 08-20-2017, 02:37 PM
 
10,974 posts, read 10,868,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccernerd View Post
I'm not a resident of Georgia yet, so I'm not familiar with the political climate and the history of Atlanta. I would submit that Los Angeles has a vast public transportation and freeway network, but it is still not enough to curb congestion. Atlanta has developed as a car dependent city, and to change that, there need to be some sort of government action to get the area to become denser and more pedestriation friendly to make public transportation feasible. The other alternative is to build a vast system of highways similar to Dallas/Fort Worth or Houston, but that just accelerates sprawl. Plus by the time people realize "Hey we kind of need a freeway here", it's too late and NIMBY people start popping up. That's all I'm going to say.
This sort of thinking is exactly what got us stuck in this car-dependant mess. Freeways simply do not work as a way to get everybody around in a large city, they just can't handle that many people. It just causes people to move further apart and become more car-dependant and thus take up more road miles every day on their commute only making the problem worse and worse in the long run.

Atlanta used to be as dense as Amsterdam and supported the dozens of private transit lines I showed earlier. But then we started building out subsidized freeways, mandating minimum parking requirements, and prohibiting density in most of the city. Honestly it is amazing we have urban options we do have given how heavy handed the policies were in pushing people to the suburbs. Atlanta needs to continue to pull back on those restrictions. I think we will find many Atlantans prefer transit and living closer in the city if they are given a level playing field.
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:45 AM
 
10,392 posts, read 11,478,434 times
Reputation: 7817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccernerd View Post
I'm not a resident of Georgia yet, so I'm not familiar with the political climate and the history of Atlanta. I would submit that Los Angeles has a vast public transportation and freeway network, but it is still not enough to curb congestion. Atlanta has developed as a car dependent city, and to change that, there need to be some sort of government action to get the area to become denser and more pedestriation friendly to make public transportation feasible. The other alternative is to build a vast system of highways similar to Dallas/Fort Worth or Houston, but that just accelerates sprawl. Plus by the time people realize "Hey we kind of need a freeway here", it's too late and NIMBY people start popping up. That's all I'm going to say.
Those are good comments.

Though, one thing that probably should be noted is that the past successful opposition to the construction of an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway around and through the outer-suburban/exurban outskirts of Atlanta goes a little bit beyond just mere NIMBYism.

In North Georgia (and in the Atlanta area in particular) there is a proud history by many local residents of either successfully opposing and/or altering high-profile superhighway construction projects through intense political activism.

The defeat of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway project back in the early 2000's was but one of a string of clashes over superhighway construction projects that dates back to the late 1960's when Atlanta joined multiple other major American cities (like New York, DC, Boston, etc) and became the site of a series of protests (or freeway revolts) against new freeway construction through heavily-developed urban neighborhoods and environmentally-sensitive rural areas.

In the case of the defeated Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc project, it was not just local residents (or "NIMBYs") who intensely opposed the road (often with the help of their local county governments (like in Forsyth and Cherokee counties) who intentionally permitted the construction of large major upscale residential developments directly in the path of the proposed road as a way of making the unpopular road even more difficult if not impossible to build), but it was also Intown Atlantans (who opposed construction of the road because they feared that it would draw more people and development out of the urban core) and local, regional and national environmentalists (who viewed the proposed road as a way for real estate developers to facilitate the encroachment of heavy commercial development on the foothills, peaks and heavily-forested wilderness areas of the Blue Ridge and Southern Appalachian mountains of North Georgia, Southwestern North Carolina and Eastern Tennessee).

Another seemingly unrelated factor that has made new superhighway construction very difficult if not outright impossible to execute in metro Atlanta and North Georgia is that the Atlanta area served as "the cradle" of the Civil Rights Movement of the late 1950's and early-mid 1960's.

That activist spirit of that era in the area easily carried over to opposing additional new freeway construction through urban neighborhoods and even through rural wilderness areas during the freeway revolts of the late 1960's and into the 1970's.

Like was alluded to in a previous post, the presence of the heavily-wooded foothills and southernmost ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains basically only a few miles north of the city has made the construction of a new outer-suburban and exurban superhighway loop much more difficult (if not impossible) in a metro region like Atlanta than it has been in large major metro regions like Dallas and Houston where that type of natural feature does not necessarily exist outside of the city.

The presence of the heavily-wooded foothills and ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains north of Atlanta has made much of North Georgia a battleground for national environmental activists who view the superhighway loop construction issue as a life-or-death matter in the issue of preventing the encroachment of heavy development on such cherished areas as the Chattahoochee National Forest in North Georgia, Nantahala National Forest in Southwestern North Carolina and even the extremely popular Great Smoky Mountains National Park in Southwestern North Carolina and Southeastern Tennessee.

There are also many residents of North Atlanta outer-suburban and exurban areas like Forsyth, Cherokee and Bartow counties that heavily self-identify directly with that popular and cherished mountains region north of Atlanta.

The history of intense activism for civil rights and against new road construction along with the intense regional strains of libertarianism and environmentalism are significant factors which have played a major role in helping to make the construction of the types of multiple outer-suburban and exurban loop superhighways that one might see outside of major Texas cities (like Dallas and Houston) pretty much completely impossible outside (and ESPECIALLY) north of Atlanta.

As popular former Georgia governor Zell Miller used to say, road construction politics in North Georgia (particularly in the North Georgia mountains, but also in metro Atlanta) is not necessarily what one might think it is.

Even though Atlanta and North Georgia may be an automobile-dependent region like other heavily-populated Sunbelt regions, building new superhighways often can be an infinitely much more prickly endeavor for politicians in North Georgia than it can be in other auto-dependent Sunbelt states like Texas, California and Florida and even than it can be in neighboring North Carolina which shares some political, cultural and geographical similarities with Georgia.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,849,415 times
Reputation: 5703
Quote:
That asside, there is no feasible way this could ever come to past unless the converted I-285 into a tollroad and it would ALSO lose its Interstate Badge and just become its state designation (GA-407 Toll).
The reason is, noone in their right mind is going to want to pay the gas / road tax on a Interstate that only a minority can use, thus only the traffic that actually uses it will pay for it. Infact Im pretty sure given its an Interstate, they literally CAN'T segregate the traffic on it by forcing drivers to have a specific license ect..
Since GA400 has no more toll, has GDOT applied AASHTO to get it a interstate number?
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:00 AM
bu2
 
24,070 posts, read 14,859,997 times
Reputation: 12904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
Those are good comments.

Though, one thing that probably should be noted is that the past successful opposition to the construction of an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway around and through the outer-suburban/exurban outskirts of Atlanta goes a little bit beyond just mere NIMBYism.

In North Georgia (and in the Atlanta area in particular) there is a proud history by many local residents of either successfully opposing and/or altering high-profile superhighway construction projects through intense political activism.

The defeat of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway project back in the early 2000's was but one of a string of clashes over superhighway construction projects that dates back to the late 1960's when Atlanta joined multiple other major American cities (like New York, DC, Boston, etc) and became the site of a series of protests (or freeway revolts) against new freeway construction through heavily-developed urban neighborhoods and environmentally-sensitive rural areas.

In the case of the defeated Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc project, it was not just local residents (or "NIMBYs") who intensely opposed the road (often with the help of their local county governments (like in Forsyth and Cherokee counties) who intentionally permitted the construction of large major upscale residential developments directly in the path of the proposed road as a way of making the unpopular road even more difficult if not impossible to build), but it was also Intown Atlantans (who opposed construction of the road because they feared that it would draw more people and development out of the urban core) and local, regional and national environmentalists (who viewed the proposed road as a way for real estate developers to facilitate the encroachment of heavy commercial development on the foothills, peaks and heavily-forested wilderness areas of the Blue Ridge and Southern Appalachian mountains of North Georgia, Southwestern North Carolina and Eastern Tennessee).

Another seemingly unrelated factor that has made new superhighway construction very difficult if not outright impossible to execute in metro Atlanta and North Georgia is that the Atlanta area served as "the cradle" of the Civil Rights Movement of the late 1950's and early-mid 1960's.

That activist spirit of that era in the area easily carried over to opposing additional new freeway construction through urban neighborhoods and even through rural wilderness areas during the freeway revolts of the late 1960's and into the 1970's.

Like was alluded to in a previous post, the presence of the heavily-wooded foothills and southernmost ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains basically only a few miles north of the city has made the construction of a new outer-suburban and exurban superhighway loop much more difficult (if not impossible) in a metro region like Atlanta than it has been in large major metro regions like Dallas and Houston where that type of natural feature does not necessarily exist outside of the city.

The presence of the heavily-wooded foothills and ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains north of Atlanta has made much of North Georgia a battleground for national environmental activists who view the superhighway loop construction issue as a life-or-death matter in the issue of preventing the encroachment of heavy development on such cherished areas as the Chattahoochee National Forest in North Georgia, Nantahala National Forest in Southwestern North Carolina and even the extremely popular Great Smoky Mountains National Park in Southwestern North Carolina and Southeastern Tennessee.

There are also many residents of North Atlanta outer-suburban and exurban areas like Forsyth, Cherokee and Bartow counties that heavily self-identify directly with that popular and cherished mountains region north of Atlanta.

The history of intense activism for civil rights and against new road construction along with the intense regional strains of libertarianism and environmentalism are significant factors which have played a major role in helping to make the construction of the types of multiple outer-suburban and exurban loop superhighways that one might see outside of major Texas cities (like Dallas and Houston) pretty much completely impossible outside (and ESPECIALLY) north of Atlanta.

As popular former Georgia governor Zell Miller used to say, road construction politics in North Georgia (particularly in the North Georgia mountains, but also in metro Atlanta) is not necessarily what one might think it is.

Even though Atlanta and North Georgia may be an automobile-dependent region like other heavily-populated Sunbelt regions, building new superhighways often can be an infinitely much more prickly endeavor for politicians in North Georgia than it can be in other auto-dependent Sunbelt states like Texas, California and Florida and even than it can be in neighboring North Carolina which shares some political, cultural and geographical similarities with Georgia.
North Carolina has similar terrain and has done a massive amount of highway building, perhaps even more than Texas per capita. The terrain is simply an excuse for why things can't be done. I was struck by Jimmy Carter's talk of limits as president. It seems to be a Georgia thing. There is a Georgia "can't do" attitude. Lots of excuses and no leadership. Now, with the Northern Arc, a lot of people didn't want it. But that is why it and similar things haven't happened, not because of geographical or fiscal constraints.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:35 PM
 
16,679 posts, read 29,495,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
North Carolina has similar terrain and has done a massive amount of highway building, perhaps even more than Texas per capita. The terrain is simply an excuse for why things can't be done. I was struck by Jimmy Carter's talk of limits as president. It seems to be a Georgia thing. There is a Georgia "can't do" attitude. Lots of excuses and no leadership. Now, with the Northern Arc, a lot of people didn't want it. But that is why it and similar things haven't happened, not because of geographical or fiscal constraints.
You are right.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:32 AM
 
10,392 posts, read 11,478,434 times
Reputation: 7817
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
North Carolina has similar terrain and has done a massive amount of highway building, perhaps even more than Texas per capita. The terrain is simply an excuse for why things can't be done. I was struck by Jimmy Carter's talk of limits as president. It seems to be a Georgia thing. There is a Georgia "can't do" attitude. Lots of excuses and no leadership. Now, with the Northern Arc, a lot of people didn't want it. But that is why it and similar things haven't happened, not because of geographical or fiscal constraints.
That is an excellent point about North Carolina.

Though, citing North Carolina's road construction prowess (even though it is very similar to Georgia in size, population, sociopolitical makeup and topography) illustrates the political and geographical differences that make new road construction (particularly superhighway construction) much more viable in North Carolina than in Georgia.

Even though Georgia and North Carolina may be very similar in physical size, population, sociopolitical makeup and topography, the distribution of the metropolitan population is significantly different in North Carolina than it is in Georgia.

North Carolina is a much more decentralized state with it's metropolitan population being distributed much more evenly between three relatively smaller metro regions in Metrolina (Charlotte/Gastonia/Kannapolis), the Triad (Greensboro/Winston-Salem/High Point) and the Triangle (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill/Cary) while most of Georgia's population is concentrated in an Atlanta greater metro region that stretches into the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains just north of the city.

Most of metro Atlanta and North Georgia's wealth and affluence is found throughout the north side of the Atlanta region in the part of the region (the "Golden Crescent") where a significant number of residents identify and self-identify as being part of the North Georgia Blue Ridge Mountains region both directly and indirectly.

The occurrence of so many residents of the metro region socially and psychologically identifying so heavily with an environmentally contentious area just outside the city is an impediment to new superhighway construction that does not necessarily exist in a similar way outside of major metro regions in Texas and North Carolina like it does in Georgia.

An area like the North Georgia foothills and southernmost ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains just north of Atlanta just does not necessarily exist to politically impede the construction of new superhighway outer loop roads outside of major metro areas in states like Texas and North Carolina.

It should also be noted that, while the State of Georgia has been unable to construction an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway loop road outside of Atlanta, the State of Georgia has been very active in constructing four and five-lane at-grade highways throughout the state by way of a state rural road construction program called GRIP (Governor's Road Improvement Program). Georgia state government has been particularly active in executing this rural road construction program throughout rural stretches of the state outside of metro Atlanta in both North and South Georgia.

"Governor's Road Improvement Program" (Georgia Department of Transportation)
GRIP (Governor's Road Improvement Program)

This ambitious rural road construction program (which aims to have built over 3300 miles of rural roadway when completed) obviously gets very little (if any) attention and/or recognition in metro Atlanta where anything that is perceived to be excessive road construction (whether rightfully or wrongfully) seemingly gets looked down upon and viewed by derision by much of the population.

Georgia likely builds nearly as many new roads per-capita as competing Sunbelt states like North Carolina, Florida and Texas....It is just that Georgia builds most of its new roads as rural four and five-lane at-grade highways instead of as new outer-suburban and exurban controlled-access loop/bypass superhighways as might be much more the case in NC, FL and TX.
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Old 10-22-2017, 08:00 PM
 
Location: CA--> NEK VT--> Pitt Co, NC
385 posts, read 440,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post

The same goes for Hwy 99 (Houston's outer loop) - That road is about 200 miles long and about 40ish miles from downtown Houston. Although they planned well ahead and you can see by the design of the road that they can easily widen if it they ever needed to, that route is also mostly entirely rural and seems that it will remain that way for quite some time..

I personally don't believe a well planned outerbypass will EXPLODE with development in the Atlanta area.. the only thing that I can see MIGHT happening is a few outlet malls popping up on it sucking up the traffic from inter-suburb commuters (between Gwinnett and Cobb for example)

IDK about Atlanta, but having spent the last 2 years living right next to the 59/99 interchange in SW Houston, I can tell you without a doubt that road expansion will and does spur suburban development. There's got to be at least 6-8 MPCs that have popped up along 99 since that loop was announced. They are about to complete the last southbound section between now and 2019 and there are already new subdivisions planned. And the Route 36 is expected to expand because of the burgeoning population. It is rural now in south Richmond and Rosenberg (one of the reasons I picked living there) but expect to see all of ranches disappear over the next 10-20 years...if that long.

Not sure how much interest there is in developing an outer loop in the ATL area, and what it would mean to people to develop rural areas, but most of Houston can barely keep up with the desire for moderately priced, master planned communities so if they build a new road, there will be development. It is a given. Hell I am from Los Angeles and that is pretty much what happened anywhere in a 3 hour radius of downtown LA and long before that sprawl happened anywhere else. You get good at seeing what triggers that kind of growth. Not that it is bad...unless you like rural that is.
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Old 10-22-2017, 10:14 PM
 
Location: NW Atlanta
6,503 posts, read 6,116,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naadarien View Post
\
Not sure how much interest there is in developing an outer loop in the ATL area

Less than zero.
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Old 10-23-2017, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Georgia
5,845 posts, read 6,153,448 times
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Yeah the Outer Perimeter, at least on the north side, isn't looking likely. As I've said before, I'm surprised they haven't tried to go for a U-shaped outer perimeter that excludes the north side.
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