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Old 10-23-2017, 11:06 PM
bu2
 
24,092 posts, read 14,875,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth View Post
Yeah the Outer Perimeter, at least on the north side, isn't looking likely. As I've said before, I'm surprised they haven't tried to go for a U-shaped outer perimeter that excludes the north side.
I really think those are the more important parts for through traffic. How many people will go from 75 north to 85 north or vice versa? The northern piece is primarily for suburb to suburb transportation (and as far north as some of the discussions have it, it wouldn't do much for that). A U could keep a lot of through traffic and trucks off 285 and the Connector during rush hours. I think it could also save the metro area a lot of distribution jobs. 285 is so clogged, it could have distribution companies looking elsewhere. That's a lot of good jobs for non-college educated people that wouldn't be there. With the airport and railroads, Atlanta is, otherwise, a prime spot for those jobs.
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Old 10-24-2017, 12:20 AM
 
10,396 posts, read 11,493,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth View Post
Yeah the Outer Perimeter, at least on the north side, isn't looking likely. As I've said before, I'm surprised they haven't tried to go for a U-shaped outer perimeter that excludes the north side.
I think that the state effectively killed that option of a U-shaped Outer Perimeter when they basically cancelled all but the Northern Arc in an effort to get the section of the proposed road between I-75 NW and I-85 NE built in the face of mounting public opposition to the entire Outer Perimeter project as a whole back during the Barnes administration.

The Barnes administration basically killed the U-shaped portion of the Outer Perimeter first before the entire project was killed by Sonny Perdue just after he took office in 2003.

A pro-development government in Paulding County attempted to revive a portion of the Outer Perimeter between I-75 Northwest and I-20 West back in about 2013-2014 or so. But the other counties that section of the road would have gone through (Bartow and Douglas) naturally were cool on the idea of reviving an Outer Perimeter highway proposal that was so publicly unpopular the first time around. That pro-development Paulding County government supporting the I-75 NW to I-20 W section of the Outer Perimeter also was eventually swept out of office by voters due to public opposition to their push to expand the Paulding County Airport into a second major airport for the Atlanta region.

Georgia state government also had to abandon their push to build a roadway called the "411-75 Connector" which would have been a part of the Outer Perimeter had it been built in Bartow County. The State of Georgia had to abandon that section of roadway after spending more money on 30 years of fighting litigation by the powerful Rollins family of pest control fame (who wanted to stop the road because it proposed to run through a historic area called Dobbins Mountain where they owned land) than it would have cost to build the roadway itself.

Last edited by Born 2 Roll; 10-24-2017 at 12:28 AM..
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Old 10-24-2017, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,057 posts, read 12,857,194 times
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I have waxed on about this over my 9 years of being on CD. The failure to build not one but two outer perimeters is one of the worst things about Atlanta and the lack of regional focus. For this to have been a reality, should have gone on the books about the time that 575 and 400 were being built.


Afraid it is too late now.


And the argument about sprawl coming because of such a road. The sprawl came anyway. How idiotic of an argument.
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:50 PM
 
Location: CA--> NEK VT--> Pitt Co, NC
385 posts, read 440,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
Less than zero.
That's ok. Each region is different, but it really depends on the market. If there are people willing to buy homes in the $150-$300k range, you will always have expansion. That is the reality of the market. As long as lending is decent and the economy is stable, that is the middle class house buying range (for now; and especially in areas with lots of military/transient populations). If a road is built, housing will be built. And don't let a Target or Lowe's show up... Ha!

I live in Vermont now and Target and WM have long been companies some of us have fought to keep out because they mean expansion and development...and yet, Target announced new stores here. Hmmm...
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:31 AM
bu2
 
24,092 posts, read 14,875,404 times
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Road project prompts planned closing of popular Seabrook sandwich shop - Houston Chronicle

This is a road project in Seabrook, Texas, turning highway 146 into a freeway over about a 3 miles stretch. Highway 146 will connect with Houston's 3rd loop, the Grand Parkway and complete the section along Galveston Bay in the East, from Baytown to Dickinson. 146 is already freeway from Baytown to the northern edge of Seabrook. The reason I am posting this is because I keep hearing people claim there is no place to build roads like the outer perimeter. This biggest delay has been negotiating with Union Pacific who has unused rail right of way paralleling the highway.

The department released a statement to the city in early October announcing that right-of-way acquisitions were proceeding after the agency reached a settlement with Union Pacific Railroad and that TxDOT was aiming to advertise for construction bids next summer.
Negotiations between the agency and the railroad company had taken decades, with studies and documents dating back to 1990.
The project will take the property of 92 businesses, of which 35 have been acquired.
One of these is Walgreens, which closed Oct. 24, and the company has announced no plans to open elsewhere in the city. However, there are a few Seabrook staples that longtime residents can count on to remain in the area, including one that has received widespread acclaim.
Tookie's Burgers has been recognized in publications like Texas Monthly and Thrilllist.com for its succulent burger creations.
Tookie's is moving into Kemah into a building at 406 Texas Ave. that had housed Ichibon Japanese restaurant.
Another favorite, Mario's Flying Pizza, is closing in late December or early January and will move less than a half mile to 2100 Nasa Road.
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Old 10-26-2017, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
And the argument about sprawl coming because of such a road. The sprawl came anyway. How idiotic of an argument.
I very much disagree. It's not the northern suburbs, but I grew up in the rural south metro. It took (and still does take) 15 minutes of high speed highway driving to get to any grocery stores. At some point in the 90s, I recall seeing a map in the Yellow Pages with an outline of the proposed outer perimeter and it came about 3 miles from my childhood home. Do you think that house would still be 15 mins from a grocery store if the outer perimeter was built? Do you think the rural nature of the south metro would have been preserved? I certainly don't.

In regards to the northern suburbs, it would have turned out differently but with worst effect IMO. Yes sprawl has occurred without the outer perimeter, but it would have been much more destructive. Look at Hwy 20 on satellite view b/t Canton and Cumming, it is quite rural for most of the route. We don't need more density out there. We need to build inward, not outward. The latter just causes more of the problems that the Outer Perimeter was intended to solve

You can do these things in Houston where there is hardly a reason to preserve the natural state of the land. But that's just not the case in Georgia.
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:34 PM
bu2
 
24,092 posts, read 14,875,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikigod311 View Post
I very much disagree. It's not the northern suburbs, but I grew up in the rural south metro. It took (and still does take) 15 minutes of high speed highway driving to get to any grocery stores. At some point in the 90s, I recall seeing a map in the Yellow Pages with an outline of the proposed outer perimeter and it came about 3 miles from my childhood home. Do you think that house would still be 15 mins from a grocery store if the outer perimeter was built? Do you think the rural nature of the south metro would have been preserved? I certainly don't.

In regards to the northern suburbs, it would have turned out differently but with worst effect IMO. Yes sprawl has occurred without the outer perimeter, but it would have been much more destructive. Look at Hwy 20 on satellite view b/t Canton and Cumming, it is quite rural for most of the route. We don't need more density out there. We need to build inward, not outward. The latter just causes more of the problems that the Outer Perimeter was intended to solve

You can do these things in Houston where there is hardly a reason to preserve the natural state of the land. But that's just not the case in Georgia.
Oh, there were some fights about the NW part of the Grand Parkway in Houston. It goes through some of the premier bird watching areas in the country. Birds killed the planned 3rd airport just to the west of there in the 80s.
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,057 posts, read 12,857,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikigod311 View Post
I very much disagree. It's not the northern suburbs, but I grew up in the rural south metro. It took (and still does take) 15 minutes of high speed highway driving to get to any grocery stores. At some point in the 90s, I recall seeing a map in the Yellow Pages with an outline of the proposed outer perimeter and it came about 3 miles from my childhood home. Do you think that house would still be 15 mins from a grocery store if the outer perimeter was built? Do you think the rural nature of the south metro would have been preserved? I certainly don't.

In regards to the northern suburbs, it would have turned out differently but with worst effect IMO. Yes sprawl has occurred without the outer perimeter, but it would have been much more destructive. Look at Hwy 20 on satellite view b/t Canton and Cumming, it is quite rural for most of the route. We don't need more density out there. We need to build inward, not outward. The latter just causes more of the problems that the Outer Perimeter was intended to solve

You can do these things in Houston where there is hardly a reason to preserve the natural state of the land. But that's just not the case in Georgia.
The fact that it takes going from say Acworth to Alpharetta well over an hour is ridiculous with the amount of development in the northern burbs. What is it about limited access multi lane roads with exit ramps and bridges that take up any more space than a 6 lane local arterial road with at grade cossings?


Just because a road is there doesn't mean development follows. Especially in a spoke/wheel design that Atlanta has. Perhaps the argument can be made that development followed the spokes, but why do you have to go all the way into the perimeter and then back out to have freeway access across the region?


If freeway spokes are all that is needed to cause sprawl, why hasn't the southside developed to the extent of the northside? and having connectivity between the spokes does not create more sprawl, might change the way it develops but all you have to do is see that a line from Georgia 20 south to downtown is pretty much sprawl central anyway. How much nicer would the local streets be if through traffic could be funneled off the arterials? And how much better would 285 be if interstate travel (using the word to describe true travel between states and just going thru Atlanta, not Atlanta as a destination) had a better way to bypass the core?


I still don't get this argument. The sprawl came anyway. The full outer perimeter should have been completed 2 decades ago.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
9,830 posts, read 7,259,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
The sprawl came anyway.
That doesn't really mean much, though, does it? The sprawl that happened on the northside is largely related to the freeways that do exist. 75/85/400/285. And who's to say that if another northern bypass freeway had been built, there wouldn't be even more sprawl than now, even a whole lot more?

That said, sprawl-causing or not, I wish there was another perimeter further out, at least the northern arc.

But now since that's not likely to ever happen, I would favor major upgrades to existing roads like GA-20. Seems like that one could be 6+ lanes all the way, and at least mostly traffic-light free.
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,057 posts, read 12,857,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
That doesn't really mean much, though, does it? The sprawl that happened on the northside is largely related to the freeways that do exist. 75/85/400/285. And who's to say that if another northern bypass freeway had been built, there wouldn't be even more sprawl than now, even a whole lot more?

That said, sprawl-causing or not, I wish there was another perimeter further out, at least the northern arc.

But now since that's not likely to ever happen, I would favor major upgrades to existing roads like GA-20. Seems like that one could be 6+ lanes all the way, and at least mostly traffic-light free.
So, these arguments make me think that many would like Atlanta to have remained a provincial southern city like Birmingham. About the end of WWII, the two cities were pretty much equals. And the presence of a spoke/wheel interstate system in and of itself did not cause Birmingham to grow. If freeways in and of themselves cause sprawl, why isn't Birmingham a similar population to Atlanta?


So, you grow from a metro area of less than a million to one well over 5 million. Where do these people live? I understand this desire for everything to be walkable and dense and compact and no cars and mass transit and recreate some perfect urban fabric where suburbs don't exist.... but is that realistic?


Atlanta would not have the panache on the national and even the world level without the growth of the metro area. The conditions that existed prior to Atlanta's explosive growth in the last couple of generations were in large part due to the advent of the automobile and the freeway system. We are not what we are without it. It's time to stop whining about it and be thankful that we have a decent freeway system and understand that without it, we are still just a small regional city.


I continually compare Atlanta to my new environs of DFW. To me, Dallas without Fort Worth and Atlanta are so similar it is uncanny, especially in the way that both cities have had their biggest suburban growth to the north. The biggest difference in in the northern Dallas burbs is thd foresight of road planners to have not one but two outer highways that have allowed east/west connectivity. Imagine if there were a freeway from Arbor Place to Town Center at Cobb to North Point to Gwinnett Place. That is pretty much where the President George Bush Tollway would run over-layed on Atlanta. Then there is the 121/Sam Rayburn route from DFW airport to McKinney that would be similar to a route somewhere between GA 92 and GA 20 as a limited access road to give east west connectivity north of that.... think Acworth to Alpharetta/South Forsyth to Buford... That both are tolled might give some pause, but it's what got them built.


Again, I do not understand the anathema for this type of east/west connectivity in the northern burbs. The area sprawled anyway. The argument doesn't hold steam.
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