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Old 10-27-2017, 02:23 PM
 
Location: NW Atlanta
6,503 posts, read 6,116,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post

Again, I do not understand the anathema for this type of east/west connectivity in the northern burbs. The area sprawled anyway. The argument doesn't hold steam.
Probably because it would cost billions of dollars that GDOT doesn't have and thousands of people would be displaced to construct it.
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
Probably because it would cost billions of dollars that GDOT doesn't have and thousands of people would be displaced to construct it.
I am griping that this wasn't foreseen decades ago. It is too late and too expensive now. In Dallas, these roadways were planned years ago and development did not happen in their paths.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:01 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
I am griping that this wasn't foreseen decades ago. It is too late and too expensive now. In Dallas, these roadways were planned years ago and development did not happen in their paths.
Well Cherokee County deliberately put development in the path.

I've become convinced there is no county in the area more lead by head in the sand idiots than Cherokee. Goes for their schools as well. Its a circus. Now they don't seem to have the corruption that pervades Fulton, DeKalb and Clayton, but they are very short-sighted.

Its not too late or too expensive. You can look at lots of road projects in Houston, Dallas and Austin that had to acquire property. You can look at MARTA Environmental Statements and see that they have to acquire property. It is more expensive.

There are just people who don't want change. And its coming anyway and their refusal to prepare is ruining their quality of life.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:03 PM
bu2
 
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And since you mentioned 121, you ought to have seen that when it was under construction. They had to take out a lot to build that.
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Old 10-29-2017, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Georgia
5,845 posts, read 6,153,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
I am griping that this wasn't foreseen decades ago. It is too late and too expensive now. In Dallas, these roadways were planned years ago and development did not happen in their paths.
Development didn't happen in the actual right-of-way of highways such as TX 121, but boy did it happen all around there.
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Old 10-29-2017, 06:32 PM
 
10,392 posts, read 11,478,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
The fact that it takes going from say Acworth to Alpharetta well over an hour is ridiculous with the amount of development in the northern burbs. What is it about limited access multi lane roads with exit ramps and bridges that take up any more space than a 6 lane local arterial road with at grade cossings?
It's not just necessarily the space that people are afraid of as much as the Gwinnett/Cobb/North Fulton/DeKalb/Clayton-style heavy suburban sprawl that people seem to be most afraid of.

Outer-suburban and exurban residents are afraid that an Outer Perimeter superhighway loop will bring the type of heavy development that has turned once outer-suburban/exurban areas like Gwinnett, Cobb and North Fulton into inner-suburban/urban areas with high traffic, crime and overcrowding.

At the time of the Outer Perimeter controversy in the late 1990's and early 2000's Intown Atlanta residents are/were afraid that an Outer Perimeter superhighway loop would divert reinvestment from the inner-city to the exurban fringe.

And local, regional and national environmental activists were afraid that the Outer Perimeter would further the encroachment of heavy metropolitan development patterns on the Blue Ridge Mountains were sucking transportation dollars away from transit and towards more roadbuilding.

Environmental activists actually viewed the battle over the Outer Perimeter as a sort of apocalyptic-type of final battle to stop the encroachment of Atlanta's heavy metropolitan development patterns on the entire Blue Ridge/Southern Appalachian mountains region... And those environmental activists joined with Intowners and suburbanites/exurbanites to form one of the most effective political coalitions that this state has ever seen to stop a high-profile road construction proposal that all three groups seemed to totally despise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Just because a road is there doesn't mean development follows. Especially in a spoke/wheel design that Atlanta has. Perhaps the argument can be made that development followed the spokes, but why do you have to go all the way into the perimeter and then back out to have freeway access across the region?
That's a very good point that just because a road is there doesn't mean development follows.

But development definitely has followed the major radial spoke highway routes (I-75 NW, I-575/GA 515 N, GA 400 N, I-85 NE, I-985/GA 365 NE, GA 141 N/NE, PIB, GA 10/US 78 E, I-20 E, I-75 S, US 19-41 S, GA 85 S, I-85 SW, I-20 W, GA 6/US 278 W, US 41 NW) in and around the Atlanta region.

The three main two-digit Interstate superhighway through routes and the Perimeter (I-20, I-75, I-85 and I-285) were commissioned by the federal government because of Atlanta's pre-existing status as a geographically centralized crossroads for the Southeastern U.S., so there was no way to prevent those major superhighway routes from catalyzing heavy development along their respective corridors.

But regional spur superhighway/super-arterial routes like Interstate 575/Georgia 515 and Georgia 400 North were planned and built with the express goal of catalyzing development through their respective corridors.

I-575/GA 515 (which is named the Appalachian Developmental Highway through the North Georgia Mountains region) was planned and built with the intent of generating commercial development in a hilly and mountainous region north/northwest of Atlanta that has often struggled mightily with poverty. I-575/GA 515 was planned and built as a means of generating increased economic activity along the old two-lane GA 5 corridor by attempting to eliminate the geographical isolation of the area.

GA 400 was planned and built with the express intent of cutting down on the notable geographic and social isolation of the area due north and north-northeast of Atlanta along the old two-lane GA 9 corridor by catalyzing a long-term development pattern through the area that would bring in outside investment.

Other major roads like GA 316 were built purely to provide increased connectivity between Atlanta (Georgia's largest city/metro and site of its state capital) and the state's flagship University of Georgia campus in Athens.

A road like I-985/GA 365 was built with the combined intent of both providing increased logistical connectivity between Atlanta and the very important Northeast Georgia city of Gainesville AND increasing economic opportunity to an outlying somewhat geographically isolated area like the part of the Northeast Georgia Mountains region beyond the Gainesville area and away from the Southern Railroad line. I-985/GA 365 was also built with the intent of increasing connectivity between Atlanta and the wildly-popular tourist-oriented/recreational area of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park in Southwestern North Carolina and Southeastern Tennessee.

But regional superhighway and super-arterial roads like I-575/GA 515 and GA 400 were built with the express intent of generating heavy development in areas where it did not previously exist as a means of attempting to spread increased economic opportunity to geographically isolated areas.

Georgia officials also got caught planning to open up the area along the proposed Outer Perimeter for development were telling the public that the road was not being built to catalyze development when many Roy Barnes-era state officials were discovered to have made speculative land purchases in areas where future interchanges could go.

There is also the case of the Mall of Georgia which was built at its location along Georgia Highway 20 near the junction of Interstates 85 and 985 because the site was immediately near the proposed route of the then-future Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc... A Outer Perimeter which the Mall of Georgia's developers expected would generate cross-regional traffic to the mall and its surrounding retail district in northern Gwinnett County.

The Mall of Georgia is actually proof that the Outer Perimeter was generating heavy development along its path years before the road was slated to be built.

With so much proof that the road both was already generating heavy development before it was even built and was expected to generate heavy development along its path by both developers and politicians alike, it proved virtually impossible to get North Georgia voters to believe the official government line that the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc was not being built to generate heavy development in the outer-suburban and exurban areas that the road was proposed to be built through.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
If freeway spokes are all that is needed to cause sprawl, why hasn't the southside developed to the extent of the northside? and having connectivity between the spokes does not create more sprawl, might change the way it develops but all you have to do is see that a line from Georgia 20 south to downtown is pretty much sprawl central anyway. How much nicer would the local streets be if through traffic could be funneled off the arterials? And how much better would 285 be if interstate travel (using the word to describe true travel between states and just going thru Atlanta, not Atlanta as a destination) had a better way to bypass the core?
That is an excellent question asking why the Southside (Southern Crescent) has not developed to the extent of the Northside (Northern Crescent/Golden Crescent) if freeway spokes are all that are needed to cause sprawl.

One major reason why the Northside/Northern Crescent has been developed and built up much more heavily than the Southside/Southern Crescent appears to be because of the presence of the hilly-to-mountainous terrain of the foothills of the nearby Blue Ridge Mountains on the north side of the Atlanta region.

That hilly-to-mountainous terrain north of Atlanta made for almost perfect topography for the development of federally-funded reservoirs like lakes Allatoona and Lanier northwest and northeast of the city.

The presence of the foothills and the ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains north of the city led to the creation of the manmade lakes Allatoona and Lanier for water supply and helped to drive development patterns north from the city in the boom years and decades of the post-World War II period.

The presence of the major freight and passenger railroad lines north of the city (the Western & Atlantic northwest of Atlanta and the Southern Railroad northeast of Atlanta) that connected to major population centers in the North Central and Northeastern U.S. before World War II also played a major role in driving the Atlanta region's intense development patterns northwest and northeast of the city after World War II.

Largely because of their locations along busy intercontinental railroad lines, the northwestern Atlanta suburb of Marietta and the northeastern Atlanta suburb of Norcross were well-known inland resort hubs in the time before World War I.

Consequently, both Marietta and Norcross became the site of massive industrial structures which aided in catalyzing much suburban development northwest and northeast of Atlanta, respectively, after World War II.

Marietta became the site of the Lockheed plant at Dobbins Air Force Base, a development which established Cobb County as an economic and political powerhouse for the Southeastern U.S. during the late 20th and early 21st Century.

More than 20 years after Lockheed opened in Marietta, Norcross became the site of the massive Western Electric plant which became the catalyst for commercial development in Western Gwinnett and sparked a massive commercial development boom in Gwinnett which continues to this day.

The Southside/Southern Crescent (which, while not as heavily developed as the Northside, has also experienced a significant amount of heavy development) did not have the presence of the foothills, the mountains, the pre-existing inland resort draws and the major federally-funded reservoirs (lakes Allatoona and Lanier) to help drive as much heavy metropolitan development in its direction as the Northside did early-on... Though it should be noted that the Southside has had the Airport and I-75 towards Florida and the Georgia Coast to help drive some heavy development patterns in its direction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
I still don't get this argument. The sprawl came anyway. The full outer perimeter should have been completed 2 decades ago.
That is an excellent point that the sprawl came to outlying outer-suburban areas anyway even without the construction of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc.

Though, even if Georgia officials did desire, did plan and did attempt to construction one or more Outer Perimeter superhighway loops, it likely was always going to be impossible for such a loop superhighway route to be completed around Atlanta... That's because of the propensity for Georgia officials to wait until parts of the Atlanta area had either already been built up with heavy development or were on the way to being built up with heavy development before proposing and attempting to build major roads like the Georgia 400 ITP Extension and the Outer Perimeter.

And that propensity for Georgia officials to wait until an area has developed to propose and attempt to build new highways through areas reflects the deeper underlying mindset that Georgia officials don't necessarily like to engage in regional planning to the extent that officials might like to do so in other major Sunbelt metro regions like Dallas and Houston.

With the exception of the Atlanta Airport (whose development was fostered by Atlanta city government leaders), much of the infrastructure that the Atlanta metro area has come to depend on (like the Interstate system, lakes Allatoona and Lanier, and facilities like Fort MacPherson and Fort Gillem in previous eras) were commissioned and built by the federal government.

It's a different mindset from an area like Dallas and North Texas where much of the infrastructure (like the area's superhighways and reservoirs) were commissioned and built by local government interests.

In Georgia, crucial pieces of infrastructure like superhighways and lakes Allatoona and Lanier most likely would not have gotten built at all had they not been built by the federal government.

That largely 'hands-off' type of attitude by Georgia state government when it comes to infrastructure likely is one of the reasons why the Outer Perimeter was not built sooner before the area along its proposed path had started to become built up with development and populated with residents who could oppose and block it.

I heard of stories where Georgia state officials were strongly advised by some forward-looking planners back in the 1950's and 1960's to build more multimodal transportation and water infrastructure in metro Atlanta and North Georgia because of the then 1 million-inhabitant Atlanta area's potential to grow to its current population of 6 million-plus people... But those planners were laughed off by not-so-forward looking Georgia officials who thought that the forecasts that the Atlanta region might reach 6 million people was something that was akin to some wild fictional tale that was not worth being taken seriously.

...And yet here we are with an Atlanta region with a population of about 6.5 million residents with not enough transportation and water infrastructure for a metropolitan region of our size and population.
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Old 10-29-2017, 06:43 PM
 
10,392 posts, read 11,478,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Well Cherokee County deliberately put development in the path.

I've become convinced there is no county in the area more lead by head in the sand idiots than Cherokee. Goes for their schools as well. Its a circus. Now they don't seem to have the corruption that pervades Fulton, DeKalb and Clayton, but they are very short-sighted.

Its not too late or too expensive. You can look at lots of road projects in Houston, Dallas and Austin that had to acquire property. You can look at MARTA Environmental Statements and see that they have to acquire property. It is more expensive.

There are just people who don't want change. And its coming anyway and their refusal to prepare is ruining their quality of life.
Cherokee is an interesting county where many residents view the county as being part of the Blue Ridge Mountains region to the north... The same Blue Ridge Mountains region where many local residents and local, regional and national environmentalists are loath to permit the construction of large-scale road projects like the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc that they think will further the encroachment of heavy development into the area from Atlanta.

The motto of Cherokee County's official website actually is "Where metro meets the mountains"... A motto that reflects that much of the county's citizenry views the county as being part of the Blue Ridge Mountains region of North Georgia where many locals are loath to permit any large-scale road construction projects that they perceive might disturb the rural/exurban character of their area.
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Old 10-30-2017, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,726 posts, read 24,849,415 times
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Quote:
If freeways in and of themselves cause sprawl, why isn't Birmingham a similar population to Atlanta?
Civil Rights
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,057 posts, read 12,852,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Civil Rights
I'm sure it played a role but I would say not the major one. Atlanta has always had a more diverse economic base than Birmingham. From my five years there (graduate of Samford University) the old timers I heard discussing the issue put a bigger blame on the steel industry that ran the town for many years. They didn't want competition, wanted to be the main players in the city. Leaders didn't seek business and growth the way Atlanta leaders did and in fact worked against it in many cases.

Last edited by Saintmarks; 10-30-2017 at 11:38 AM..
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
8,057 posts, read 12,852,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
Cherokee is an interesting county where many residents view the county as being part of the Blue Ridge Mountains region to the north... The same Blue Ridge Mountains region where many local residents and local, regional and national environmentalists are loath to permit the construction of large-scale road projects like the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc that they think will further the encroachment of heavy development into the area from Atlanta.

The motto of Cherokee County's official website actually is "Where metro meets the mountains"... A motto that reflects that much of the county's citizenry views the county as being part of the Blue Ridge Mountains region of North Georgia where many locals are loath to permit any large-scale road construction projects that they perceive might disturb the rural/exurban character of their area.
I just don't see how welcoming the 575 connection that made it an easy connection to the rest of the area is not seen as a bigger sprawl developer than a complementing east west road that is more of a bypass.
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