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It should not be don't as a punitive thing, but it should be done.
Most of CoA's roads are getting paid with property taxes. They should add some form of tolls to use roads in the city so it more directly ties to usage and stop incentivizing people from living outside the city and free loading on our car infrastructure. Meanwhile people such as myself are paying most of the cost of the roads even though I don't have a car.
And for those of you predicting disaster, this has been in place in London with good results and other cities are following suite.
So no, it will not cause people and businesses to flee to the suburbs. The opposite actually. Our current system of having the people in business in the city limits pick up most the bill for suburban drivers has been incentivizing people to leave the city due to high taxes for decades. Time to reverse that. The city should offer lower taxes.
Most of CoA's roads are getting paid with property taxes. They should add some form of tolls to use roads in the city so it more directly ties to usage and stop incentivizing people from living outside the city and free loading on our car infrastructure. Meanwhile people such as myself are paying most of the cost of the roads even though I don't have a car.
A TSPLOST sales tax does recoup some of the cost from visitors, but not nearly enough.
It should not be don't as a punitive thing, but it should be done.
Most of CoA's roads are getting paid with property taxes. They should add some form of tolls to use roads in the city so it more directly ties to usage and stop incentivizing people from living outside the city and free loading on our car infrastructure. Meanwhile people such as myself are paying most of the cost of the roads even though I don't have a car.
And for those of you predicting disaster, this has been in place in London with good results and other cities are following suite.
So no, it will not cause people and businesses to flee to the suburbs. The opposite actually. Our current system of having the people in business in the city limits pick up most the bill for suburban drivers has been incentivizing people to leave the city due to high taxes for decades. Time to reverse that. The city should offer lower taxes.
So much silliness on so many levels. Where should I start?
99% of the driving I do within the city limits of Atlanta is on 75/85, 285 and 166. All state highways funded with gas taxes and federal highway dollars. Not CoA property taxes.
This has worked in London, Paris and other places because those cities and their metro areas have extensive transit systems that were extremely well planned, with dense networks that serve pretty much all areas extremely well. We just don't have that yet, and won't for decades. The density of the MARTA network even within the city is a joke compared to what even the suburbs have in Europe.
Finally, not everyone can logistically manage to live within the city limits, even if they can afford to, particularly in two-income households where jobs may be scattered all over the place. The concept of "living where you work" is great but at the end of the day, jobs are where they are, compromises have to be made, and sometimes that's going to mean a commute, including some that involve driving into the city.
Well, if we were to, instead, toll entries into I-285 rather than punish certain counties, we're looking at something close to $29.8 Billion over 40 years. That's roughly $860 Million a year.
That's if the average normal toll was equal to a MARTA fare, if we saw a 25% reduction in entries, with both initial construction and annual operations included, and with reduced tolls for low-income residents like MARTA has for its fares.
That amount of money can fund, in full, all of the following:
The Entire GDOT commuter rail plan
The MMPT
A Howell Wye Rebuild
A Gulch Wye Rebuild
Additional core rail right of way for dedicated passenger rail use
I-295 Top-End Heavy Rail between Cumberland & Doraville
Green Line Expansion NW to the Silver Comet
Green Line Expansion NE to Tucker / Northlake
Whatever light-rail is left to be funded within the city
Full-loop I-285 Bus Rapid Transit
All Hashtag Bus Rapid Transit routes
Quadruple GRTA's current funding
A ton of new GRTA transit centers throughout the metro
A couple billion in road work.
If we get half-federal matching, we could do even more.
I've been working on a research paper / initial proposal for an I-285 bounded toll zone and it looks like we'd be pretty well off if we did that. I think, that given the extensiveness of projects, we would not have to worry about equity of access to the core region.
The new levy is in addition to the £11.50 ($15) congestion charge that all vehicles in the heart of the British capital need to pay between 7 a.m. and 6 p.m. That makes the total fee for some cars entering central London a whopping £21.50 ($28.41)."
Especially for a couple of suburban counties that do not want to invest in mass transit and bringing all that traffic into Atlanta daily??
If you have a Cobb or Gwinnett tag you pay $15 to enter Atlanta. Fulton, Dekalb and Clayton would enter for free. Is this a good idea?
You do realize that London is like 20 times larger than Atlanta on top of which boasts a transit system that makes Atlanta's literally look like a display model on a shelf for little children to peek at...
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
Well, if we were to, instead, toll entries into I-285 rat---
They will NEVER toll I-285 - It is illegal to convert an existing PAID federally funded interstate into a toll road..This is why Florida's Turnpike and I-95 run side by side on the south eastern coast of Florida.. On top of which it will absolutely be a political nightmare for trucks passing through Atlanta going to Florida as for many, it is the only way to go. end of story - next.
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And with a brief note - something like this would work in Manhatten, and decently in Chicago's CBD, and perhaps maybe even San Francisco or Los Angeles although it would be pretty difficult to do in L.A. ...But Atlanta would pretty much commit suicide by doing this.
99% of the driving I do within the city limits of Atlanta is on 75/85, 285 and 166. All state highways funded with gas taxes and federal highway dollars. Not CoA property taxes.
In 2014, Georgia's state road funding was only covered by 'use fees' to 39.6%. The rest came from the state's general fund. The federal government only covers some 50% of its road funding with 'use fees', with the rest coming from general funds.
While the interstates may not be using Atlanta property taxes, sales and income taxes collected within the city certainly are being spent on them.
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This has worked in London, Paris and other places because those cities and their metro areas have extensive transit systems that were extremely well planned, with dense networks that serve pretty much all areas extremely well. We just don't have that yet, and won't for decades. The density of the MARTA network even within the city is a joke compared to what even the suburbs have in Europe.
Well, tolling comes with its own solution to this: the profit it generates from its tolls can be used for transit funding. As I talk about in a previous post, revenue from tolls would fund an incredible amount of transit investment in the metro, with a significant decrease in traffic at the same time.
With those transit investments could come TODs to greatly increase the density along each line even more than would naturally occur.
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Finally, not everyone can logistically manage to live within the city limits, even if they can afford to, particularly in two-income households where jobs may be scattered all over the place. The concept of "living where you work" is great but at the end of the day, jobs are where they are, compromises have to be made, and sometimes that's going to mean a commute, including some that involve driving into the city.
Again, tolling comes with its own solution to this: funding transit all throughout the metro.
In 2014, Georgia's state road funding was only covered by 'use fees' to 39.6%. The rest came from the state's general fund. The federal government only covers some 50% of its road funding with 'use fees', with the rest coming from general funds.
While the interstates may not be using Atlanta property taxes, sales and income taxes collected within the city certainly are being spent on them.
Well, tolling comes with its own solution to this: the profit it generates from its tolls can be used for transit funding. As I talk about in a previous post, revenue from tolls would fund an incredible amount of transit investment in the metro, with a significant decrease in traffic at the same time.
With those transit investments could come TODs to greatly increase the density along each line even more than would naturally occur.
Again, tolling comes with its own solution to this: funding transit all throughout the metro.
Again... There's a reason that these highways are federally funded and not locally maintained. They are literally apart of the nations defense system. If you toll them, they lose the interstate badge and they can only be privately funded.. meaning.. they will be very expensive and will not ever incur the revenue to upkeep them. They cannot receive both federal and private funding. It is either one..or the other.
Also
It would completely conflict with the nations defense system by literally cutting a chunk out of I-75, I-85 and I-20... As the sections inside Atlanta will no longer be interstates if they are tolled, but state maintained or privately maintained roads and because of that, Georgia would have to build entirely new alignments of these Interstates and reconnect them after the existing tolled segments (which would completely annihilate any proceeds they would receive from the tolls for the next decade.)
You cannot just throw a toll on an existing Interstate.
If it was a brand new highway, thats different - however; it will not qualify to be an interstate.
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And dude, don't compare Atlanta to Paris and London...they are altogether on two different levels... both of those cities have transit systems already installed that are state of art in comparison to what we have. Also both cities are massively larger than Atlanta, with London itself being even larger than New York.
They will NEVER toll I-285 - It is illegal to convert an existing PAID federally funded interstate into a toll road..This is why Florida's Turnpike and I-95 run side by side on the south eastern coast of Florida.. On top of which it will absolutely be a political nightmare for trucks passing through Atlanta going to Florida as for many, it is the only way to go. end of story - next.
I am well aware of the current laws. You're assuming it stays illegal, though, which, given the state of infrastructure decay and fiscal unsustainability in this country, isn't a set deal.
Also, trucks would be allowed to bypass on, well, I-285. Just like they're already required to do.
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And with a brief note - something like this would work in Manhatten, and decently in Chicago's CBD, and perhaps maybe even San Francisco or Los Angeles although it would be pretty difficult to do in L.A. ...But Atlanta would pretty much commit suicide by doing this.
Dynamic tolling would maintain a certain level of entrance, just as they do in HOT lanes. Prices would be set to ensure that there was still plenty of activity into the city. That point may very well be well below my stated average toll, but it's entirely incorrect to say it would be suicide.
[quote=Need4Camaro;49929062]Again... There's a reason that these highways are federally funded and not locally maintained.
This is incorrect. GDOT 'owns' the interstates and federal roads within the state. The state pays lots of money to maintain them beyond what the feds pitch in.
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They are literally apart of the nations defense system.
As are the privately and for-profit freight rail networks. Nothing about tolling, especially if done so by the state via SRTA or a similar agency, would change that.
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If you toll them, they lose the interstate badge and they can only be privately funded.. meaning.. they will be very expensive and will not ever incur the revenue to upkeep them. They cannot receive both federal and private funding. It is either one..or the other.
This still assumes that the laws stay as they are in perpetuity, which I don't buy.
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It would completely conflict with the nations defense system by literally cutting a chunk out of I-75, I-85 and I-20...
No, it would not. Even if the roads didn't remain property of the state, which is not at all what I'm suggesting, they would still be subject to the rules inherit to Martial Law and States of Emergency. That is, they are 100% still usable in times of national need, just like the privately owned railroads are.
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As the sections inside Atlanta will no longer be interstates if they are tolled, but state maintained or privately maintained roads and because of that, Georgia would have to build entirely new alignments of these Interstates and reconnect them after the existing tolled segments (which would completely annihilate any proceeds they would receive from the tolls for the next decade.)
You cannot just throw a toll on an existing Interstate.
If it was a brand new highway, thats different - however; it will not qualify to be an interstate.
You're still assuming the laws remain the same as they are today. I'm actually suggesting that SRTA be the agency that operate the tolls, just as they do the HOT lanes.
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And dude, don't compare Atlanta to Paris and London...they are altogether on two different levels... both of those cities have transit systems already installed that are state of art in comparison to what we have. Also both cities are massively larger than Atlanta, with London itself being even larger than New York.
Well, it's a good thing tolls come with their own way to fund alternatives built in.
I'm not saying that we are like London or Paris, but that, even for our differences, the principles are the same. The rules of economics don't change. The tech doesn't change. We can easily compensate for any different scenarios, but ultimately the effects will trend the same way.
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