Atlanta Metro traffic truly is becoming unbelievably bad. (Doraville: transplants, sales)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Well, I have a few thoughts on the matter here....

1) As long as I have lived here, nobody has ever wanted to do anything about traffic. In the 80s and 90s, traffic was seen to legitimize Atlanta as a city. Big cities have traffic, and we do too! Therefore, we must be a big, world class city! Atlanta has gotten over this, but there was a 20-30 year period where the city was absolutely desperate to be taken seriously as a cosmopolitan city with all the good and bad that comes along with it.

I mean, there was GA 400 that was finished, and continued to be expanded. That wasn't a small effort.

2) Now the trend (at least on this board, which I'm happy to say does NOT parallel presiding thoughts in the metro) is screw it, let the traffic get so bad people adjust to it and do something, whether it's move into the city, expand MARTA, whatever. This is based on the theory of induced demand, which says if you build more capacity, people will use it. I fundamentally disagree with this theory because it makes no sense and you could use it to justify any number of horrible things. Don't build more hospitals....because then more people will get sick! Build more graveyards and more people will die! If that's the case, why can't we build more gyms and get more people to work out? Sorry, induced demand just holds no water in my book.

You can choose not to believe in induced demand all you want, that doesn't mean it isn't real. There's tons of evidence out there showing induced demand to be very real.

Hospitals are far more efficient at handling large numbers of patients than roads are. Unlike roads, you can actually build hospitals fast enough to outpace demand. Further unlike roads, hospitals have a pricing mechanism in place to meter demand to a manageable level (even if it is a really screwed-up one).

No, people don't actually get sick more if there are spare beds in a hospital, but they absolutely do drive more if there is extra road space for them to. This is a measurable reality.

3) I do believe that people will adjust accordingly to traffic. Just as the poster above noted, he adjusted his lifestyle based on it. But I think that most people will not just get a new job in another part of town, I think they'll leave the metro. I'd like to present an alternate theory to induced demand: let's call it....adjusted supply. If the infrastructure fails to adjust to a growing population, then the population will adjust to fit the infrastructure. There will be some point where the traffic reaches a critical mass where growth simply stops. I think we're getting close to it. And you know who better hope this doesn't happen? Intown people. Because when it does, one of the things people will do is move to their neighborhoods and build more density, which they think they want. But one of the things they will bring is also traffic. Which leads to my next point....

I mean, this is not contrary to induced demand at all. The problem is that roads are just so incredibly inefficient at handling that supply, that you can't possibly keep up with the demand that you talk about to keep stagnation from happening.

It's one of the main reasons why induced demand is so dramatic with roadways.

The solution is not to double down on horribly inefficient, and financially unsustainable road systems when we could provide far more capacity in our limited room with transit and non-car methods of moving people.

4) There is a notion that traffic is only bad in the suburbs. I dispute this. In fact, the absolute worst traffic I have seen anywhere in this city is on Briarcliff Road. Often, the traffic is just fine on I-85 outside I-285, but the connector is a parking lot. This isn't so true during rush hour as much as other times of the day. So really, living intown is not the respite from traffic that many would have you believe, unless you just want to become a hermit and limit your life to things you can walk or bike to. Most people don't care to live that way. It really doesn't matter where you live, you're going to have to drive sometimes or else sacrifice some of the great aspects of living. I see traffic as an entire metro Atlanta problem, not a problem that only impacts the suburbs as many posters want you to believe.

The difference is in how that traffic affects your ability to reach places. I can reach far more locations ITP despite traffic than I could in the same amount of time in suburban traffic. Not to mention the far more effective alternative options intown that let me avoid driving in traffic all together.

Sorry, no solutions here...this is just what I think is happening. I also think traffic serves to eventually tear our city apart because the people who say, "F it, I'm outta here!" are the people we need most. They're the middle class people with decent jobs. If they leave, we'll be left with wealthy people who can afford to live in places that limit their exposure to traffic and those who can't afford to move away. We'll just be a city of rich and poor, with no middle. That never works. The middle class people who struggle with traffic the most who posters on this board seem to hate the most, are actually the most important people at making this city actually work. So.....sorry to say, but these types of complaints are going to continue. I don't think traffic will totally destroy Atlanta, but it will downgrade the city and prevent us from reaching the greatness that everybody wants.

I'll give you a solution to traffic: actually charge people to use the roads as we do with things like gas, water, and electricity. Set the prices to maintain free-flow, use some of the revenue to provide assistance to poorer people to mitigate the regressive nature of tolls, and use further funding to build a wide-network of alternatives.

I'm wrapping up a paper on one such tolling scenario within the metro now. At a 20% reduction in entries into the Perimeter, an average toll equal to the cost of 2 MARTA fares (inbound and outbound commutes), and with discounts for senior, medicare, and disabled people, we could generate $32.3 Billion in profits over 40 years to build an incredible network of alternatives to clogged roads.

I'm talking quadrupling GRTA's eXpress network, building out the entire GDOT commuter rail plan with dedicated passenger right of way within the core metro, building the MMPT, building out a top-end heavy rail line from Cumberland to Doraville, extending the Green Line to the perimeter on either end, building a BRT route all the way around the Perimeter, building out the entire Hashtag BRT plan, and more.

All while seeing 20% fewer vehicle entries into the core metro.

[cqholt]

I work downtown and even short trips to get lunch in midtown are becoming unbearably bad to the point I just don't bother.

The other side of that, is using MARTA to travel between the 2 areas is stress-less and easy. Less than 10 minutes from Five Points to Arts Center, trains every 5-6 mins.

[fieldm]

Originally Posted by cqholt

The other side of that, is using MARTA to travel between the 2 areas is stress-less and easy. Less than 10 minutes from Five Points to Arts Center, trains every 5-6 mins.

I used to do the same. I would check the app and walk on the platform time the train is coming

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by fieldm

I used to do the same. I would check the app and walk on the platform time the train is coming

Walking to the train like...

[CaliDreaming01]

Originally Posted by cqholt

The other side of that, is using MARTA to travel between the 2 areas is stress-less and easy. Less than 10 minutes from Five Points to Arts Center, trains every 5-6 mins.

Yes MARTA is very easy trip to Midtown from where I work. There is MARTA station is not very far from my job, but it is not a fun walk. You have to cross a couple of busy streets and it's very unpleasant when hot, humid or cold. Just not very pedestrian friendly.

[fermie125]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

Yeah admittedly I agree.. I can't believe the state threw away over $1 billion into that express lane thats going to have absolutely no impact even on that single corridor...

Because you're a traffic engineer? Gotcha. Everybody is an expert when it comes to roads. The northwest corridor project will provide a much needed alternate route for those willing to spend a little bit to avoid congestion. It will be awesome and you are uninformed.

[fermie125]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

I'll give you a solution to traffic: actually charge people to use the roads as we do with things like gas, water, and electricity. Set the prices to maintain free-flow, use some of the revenue to provide assistance to poorer people to mitigate the regressive nature of tolls, and use further funding to build a wide-network of alternatives.

I'm wrapping up a paper on one such tolling scenario within the metro now. At a 20% reduction in entries into the Perimeter, an average toll equal to the cost of 2 MARTA fares (inbound and outbound commutes), and with discounts for senior, medicare, and disabled people, we could generate $32.3 Billion in profits over 40 years to build an incredible network of alternatives to clogged roads.

I'm talking quadrupling GRTA's eXpress network, building out the entire GDOT commuter rail plan with dedicated passenger right of way within the core metro, building the MMPT, building out a top-end heavy rail line from Cumberland to Doraville, extending the Green Line to the perimeter on either end, building a BRT route all the way around the Perimeter, building out the entire Hashtag BRT plan, and more.

All while seeing 20% fewer vehicle entries into the core metro.

What an awful idea. Being taxed into oblivion is not the solution.

[ATLTJL]

Being taxed into oblivion is not the solution.

Especially when the roads have already been paid for by....wait for it....taxes.

If you think it's such a great idea, I recommend the following: Get some venture capital and construct a private expressway. Then toll it. Then use the money from those tolls to fund everything you're talking about.

[jpatlanta]

I have lived in 5 major cities (Atlanta being the smallest) and all are pretty much the same. You either live close to the main population area and pay more for a home or live further out and have an awful commute. This applies also to public transport in cites like London and NYC, sure you can take the train 30 miles in but you need to pay a lot, find parking and it takes ages, in Atlanta you can sit in your car and it takes ages. Either way if you choose to live a long way outside the city you will take ages to commute.

Bottom line is if you don't like to commute then either earn more and get the same size home further in or live in a smaller space further in. If you must have 3000 sq ft house then you either need to earn a lot or accept you can only afford a house this size in a bad location which will generally be a long commute to most jobs.

As for Marta if they expend I would rather see more stations on existing lines rather than massive extensions where people still won't use it much.

[ATLTJL]

earn more and get the same size home further in

Holy cow! Who knew the answer was so simple? There is was under our noses the ENTIRE TIME!

Did you here that, everyone? If you want to avoid traffic, all you have to do is EARN MORE!!!!!

Thank you so much for that insight, professor!