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This is for a number of reasons. First, for Georgia in 2014, only 39.6% of state & local road spending was covered by tolls, user fees, and user taxes. Primarily that takes the form of the Gas Tax, which is not a user fee since fuel consumption is not as strongly tied to damage of the road as is usually thought. It's more like a focused sales tax if anything. The majority of the other 69.4% comes from sales, and income taxes. So, already at the start, our roads are nearly entirely funded through taxes. Regressive ones at that.
I know the various sources where you are getting this number from. They are a bit biased, but it is a true number. However, the bias part they are being quiet about is leading you to make an incorrect assumption (underlined).
At the federal and state level, the majority of funding is coming from the gas tax. We can even throw in other sources, like tolls, but it is mostly the gas tax.
This especially includes the inter-regional roads, cross-county roads, numbered roads, highways, and freeways.
The problem is people who want to try to claim that roads aren't paid for as much by the gas tax -always- include local spending.
The fundamental problem is most local streets, both urban and suburban, aren't designed for moving many cars at all. They are actually very underused and quiet. They are really only designed for local property access and few cars are going to drive on it enough to produce a toll or enough gas use to pay for it. Nonetheless, it is a fundamental need of every land parcel to be functional and hold value.
They are also the roads that will continue to exist no matter what kind of debate anyone has for transit, highways, cars, flying ubers, or whatever.
They are paid for through the local government mostly through property taxes. It should be, as that is an expense directly tied to letting the property have functional value.
Most spending at the state and federal levels, which are typically the roadways most people argue over.. with a few admitted exceptions... are funded primarily through gas taxes and direct and indirect user fees far over 40%.
Those sources always include local government spending, which largest expenditure is neighborhood streets, to achieve those 40%-esque numbers.
The state did great by finally inching up the gas tax a bit and they need to go further.
The traffic getting horrible is what will force alternative solutions. Adding more lanes and roads is a bandaid.
Yet, neither has happened. We haven't really added any lanes in nearly two decades. And what alternatives have been forced? How much has our rail expanded during that time?
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I know many of us feel we would never use MARTA and that this is a car only city, but it doesn't have to be. Trains can be used as your only mode of transportation. Tokyo has density and population that makes Atlanta look practically rural, yet they rarely complain,of traffic because the vast majority of people just hop on trains taking them everywhere they need to go. That is what we should be striving for.
Yes, they absolutely can be...if you have an efficient and widespread system. Atlanta has a plus sign that extends at barely more than ten miles from the center. Until that is remedied, very few people are going to sequester they life to that small fraction of the city.
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Originally Posted by fieldm
Sad for you. I live near MARTA so I avoid traffic. Great job sitting in traffic while I'm on MARTA laughing at yall.
That's really pretty douchey. Do you think I laugh at the people who are walking or riding their bike when it's 40 degrees and pouring rain? Do you think I laugh at people when they're trudging through snow or ice and it 20 degrees out? Do you think I laugh at people using the summer sweating their balls off while going half a mile between destinations? No, because I'm not an a**hole.
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I really love it when people from Gwinnett and Cobb complain about traffic. You voted against MARTA and now you can suffer. I hope traffic for y'all gets worse. Instead of complaining to your county officials you come on here and complain like that's going to help.
Wow........
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Btw intown Atlanta traffic isn't that mad especially since the Braves are gone.
I rarely have many issues. My current commute is about 14 miles from Northwest Atlanta (just inside city limits) to Langford Parkway. Most mornings, my commute is about 20-25 minutes anywhere from 6am to 8am. And in the evenings from 6 to 7pm, it's about the same. Off times, it's less than 20 minutes.
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
You can choose not to believe in induced demand all you want, that doesn't mean it isn't real. There's tons of evidence out there showing induced demand to be very real.
Yet, Atlanta's interstates haven't expanded in nearly two decades. No induced demand to blame it on.
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The difference is in how that traffic affects your ability to reach places. I can reach far more locations ITP despite traffic than I could in the same amount of time in suburban traffic. Not to mention the far more effective alternative options intown that let me avoid driving in traffic all together.
This is just simply not true. I drive all over this city all the time, and I can cover a LOT more of it than I could using our small transit system, and usually in a similar or less time. "Far more locations"? MARTA covers a small percentage of ITP, even within a mile of any given station. Now, if you're saying that you can get further than someone who is stuck in standstill traffic, then sure. Just a I can get further when the train stops.
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I'll give you a solution to traffic: actually charge people to use the roads as we do with things like gas, water, and electricity. Set the prices to maintain free-flow, use some of the revenue to provide assistance to poorer people to mitigate the regressive nature of tolls, and use further funding to build a wide-network of alternatives.
Sure. Remove all forms of taxation related to roads and make it solely user-funded. Not going to happen, so not worth really discussing. But...it's a ridiculous idea to start charging all these tolls before you have alternatives. If there are no alternatives, then there is no alternative to the toll. And with such toll enacted, demand for housing ITP goes up far more than there already is, making housing soar in cost as well. So, then the real end result is you either pay more or you pay more.
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I'm wrapping up a paper on one such tolling scenario within the metro now. At a 20% reduction in entries into the Perimeter, an average toll equal to the cost of 2 MARTA fares (inbound and outbound commutes), and with discounts for senior, medicare, and disabled people, we could generate $32.3 Billion in profits over 40 years to build an incredible network of alternatives to clogged roads.
All while seeing 20% fewer vehicle entries into the core metro.
So, who isn't coming in anymore? Customers? Workers? Or just random people passing through?
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
So... not wanting to build more pollution generating, financially unsustainable roads is NIMBYism
Uh, yeah...it totally is. It might be a form of NIMBYism that is better or that you prefer, but that's exactly what it is.
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You know what helps lower commute time, reduces distracted driving? Metering road use and promoting public transit, walking, and biking.
You can't promote those options without those options readily available. You're using the most important step.
Because you're a traffic engineer? Gotcha. Everybody is an expert when it comes to roads. The northwest corridor project will provide a much needed alternate route for those willing to spend a little bit to avoid congestion. It will be awesome and you are uninformed.
Engineers used complex computer algorithms to project traffic patterns on eight segments of the two interstates in 2018 (the year the lanes open) and in 2035. They found similar trip time disparities between the tolled and untolled lanes in all of them. They also found only a marginal improvement between a few seconds and perhaps 7 minutes in expected trip times in the main lanes, compared to travel time if no express lanes were built.
For example, driving south on I-75 during morning rush hour from where the toll lanes start at Hickory Grove Road in Cobb County to where they end just inside the Perimeter would take a lightning-quick 16 minutes. That’s compared to 39 minutes in the general purpose lane, or 40 minutes if the project were never built.
Basically, the MAJORITY of drivers will see only 1 minute improvement on their commute on average. Only one who will benefit are those who pay.. ..I-85's lane costed not even 1/4th of these lanes and it took several years for it to recoup its investments.. This idea to me.. was kind of a last ditch effort move on GA-DOT part because they were out of options.
$800 million. The I-75 lanes south of town appeared to get no more than 25,000 cars per week in March when the road cost only 50¢ to use. So, let's double that...50,000 cars per week. That's about 7,150 cars per day. If they want to recoup the $800m investment in 30 years, not including any additional costs, it would require an average toll of just over $10. Not sure that's going to cut it...
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Originally Posted by fourthwarden
I'm wrapping up a paper on one such tolling scenario within the metro now. At a 20% reduction in entries into the Perimeter, an average toll equal to the cost of 2 MARTA fares (inbound and outbound commutes),
Forgot to ask...so how exactly would this work? I live ITP. I live in the city limits. Would I get charged every time I head out to Cumberland and come back, or go to my kid's karate class up in Cobb? Or do I get a pass because I live ITP?
Forgot to ask...so how exactly would this work? I live ITP. I live in the city limits. Would I get charged every time I head out to Cumberland and come back, or go to my kid's karate class up in Cobb? Or do I get a pass because I live ITP?
Yep, that's how the toll worked on GA400. At the time I was going to our Perimeter office a good bit so I got dinged every time I came back into the city.
However, it really didn't bother me that much. Just get a cruise card and you don't get hung up at the toll booth.
I have lived in 5 major cities (Atlanta being the smallest) and all are pretty much the same. You either live close to the main population area and pay more for a home or live further out and have an awful commute. This applies also to public transport in cites like London and NYC, sure you can take the train 30 miles in but you need to pay a lot, find parking and it takes ages, in Atlanta you can sit in your car and it takes ages. Either way if you choose to live a long way outside the city you will take ages to commute.
Bottom line is if you don't like to commute then either earn more and get the same size home further in or live in a smaller space further in. If you must have 3000 sq ft house then you either need to earn a lot or accept you can only afford a house this size in a bad location which will generally be a long commute to most jobs.
As for Marta if they expend I would rather see more stations on existing lines rather than massive extensions where people still won't use it much.
It's not that simple. Less than a million people in the Atlanta metro area live ITP. About 5 million live OTP. There is not enough housing ITP for significant numbers of OTP residents to move to so it's not just a matter of choice.
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Originally Posted by arjay57
Agree 100%, ATLTJL.
I am reminded of the critique Donald Shoup makes in his book about parking -- the typical approach is to build parking lots that will accommodate the most massive After Thanksgiving crowds imaginable. Then the vast majority of the lot sits there unused the other 50 weeks of the year.
It's the same with roads. If we keep trying to design for rush hour, we're setting ourselves up for failure.
In my opinion we'd get far more bang for the buck by restructuring how we work and commute, as opposed to trying to build roads for rush hour.
I'm not sure that would make any meaningful dent because a large portion of the workforce has children under the age of 18 or work in occupation that caters to that portion of the population with children under 18. So most people are going to have to work something close to a 9 to 5 because there is just no flexibility when it comes to children. A lot of workplaces have telecommuting options already, but for so many jobs, there is no escaping having to actually come into the office a few days a week and during that 9 to 5 window by necessity.
There really is just no way around tackling the mass transit issue head on.
I'm not sure that would make any meaningful dent because a large portion of the workforce has children under the age of 18 or work in occupation that caters to that portion of the population with children under 18.
I've actually seen this type of scheduling work out very well for people in that exact situation.
They do it like this: one parent goes to work around 5am and finishes by 1pm. The other might not go in until 11am or sometime after. So the parent that doesn't have to work until 11am can wake up while the other is long gone and get the kids all ready for school...and then go to work. By the time the kids get home from school or it's time to pick them up, the parent that went to work at 5am is home and ready to take care of everything. That parent can either feed the kids early and then have some quality time with the spouse before going to bed, or they can all eat together a bit late.
I've even seen parents with young kids completely stagger their schedules so they don't have to use daycare. I've even seen one bring the baby with them to work and do a "hand-off" to the other parent who is leaving work at the same time. Yeah, time together is limited to weekends...but these families are saving a ton of money on daycare.
Believe me, there are ways out there to operate without making your life revolve around some preconceived 9-5 paradigm. Firefighters, police officers, doctors, nurses, TV news producers, utility linemen, retail workers and the list goes on and on...do it every single day.
And the reason roadways are inefficient with handling their users is that most people go to work and leave work around the same time, no? Incentivized flex time would work better than a toll. Let the corporations and local governments bear the burden of an efficient road system, not their workers.
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Originally Posted by ATLTJL
This is actually an extremely valid point.
The fact of the matter is, Atlanta's highways have A TON of unused capacity. It's just not when most people can see it. But anyone who has ever had a shift job knows that getting out of town at 1pm is smooth sailing. So is coming in.
So, really, if we had more companies offering flexible schedules, we could make a dent. And I don't mean work 7a-4p instead of 8a-5p, I mean let people come in at 5am and leave at 1pm. Or don't come in until 1pm and stay until 9pm. The reason I made those 8 hour shifts is because when you don't take a traditional hour-long lunch break, you get more work done and should be able to work for just 8 hours instead of 9.
The problem is, for whatever reason, our society is pretty hung up on the 9-to-5 lifestyle. Not me, I hate it...that's why I voluntarily exited it last year and went back to shift work! I'm much happier for it, and a big reason why is avoiding the hell of commuting.
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Originally Posted by arjay57
Agree 100%, ATLTJL.
I am reminded of the critique Donald Shoup makes in his book about parking -- the typical approach is to build parking lots that will accommodate the most massive After Thanksgiving crowds imaginable. Then the vast majority of the lot sits there unused the other 50 weeks of the year.
It's the same with roads. If we keep trying to design for rush hour, we're setting ourselves up for failure.
In my opinion we'd get far more bang for the buck by restructuring how we work and commute, as opposed to trying to build roads for rush hour.
GSR13, ATLJTL and arjay each make excellent points about how flexible work schedules could and should be used to attempt to reduce the impact of so many vehicles being on the roads at once going to work at similar start times and leaving work at similar end times.
But thing is that the Atlanta metro area business community already collectively generally does a really good at utilizing such traffic congestion reduction tools as flexible work schedules and telecommuting/work from home to the extent that those tools/employee options can be utilized.
But with many businesses and corporate operations very often needing to coordinate closely and directly with both government apparatuses at the local, state and federal levels and with the very largely New York/East Coast/Eastern Time Zone-based financial world (two important entities in government and business finance that most often operate strictly between the hours of 8am-5pm Eastern Time) many businesses often can only go so far in utilizing flexible work schedules.
Many other businesses often may not be able to utilize flex work schedules and telecommuting because they perform business activities and execute business operations where they must coordinate with the operations of other businesses that may largely only operate between the hours of 8am-5pm.
(...Along with government operations, banking, finance and law/legal services are major examples of industries where the flex work schedule and telecommuting/work from home options might not necessarily be as available as they might be in other industries like technology and telecommunications.)
Though it should also be noted that while there are many things that Georgia's state government has failed miserably at on the transportation front, one very good thing that Georgia's state government has done recently at a minimum is that it has taken a lead in encouraging the private business/corporate sector to utilize flex work schedules and telecommuting/work from home programs in an attempt to reduce the severity of intense traffic congestion that is generated from Atlanta's metropolitan peak-hour/rush-hour commuting patterns.
Georgia's state government has taken a lead in encouraging even greater rates of flex scheduling and telecommuting/work from home with the Georgia CommuteSmart program with an executive order by Georgia Governor Nathan Deal that encourages state government agencies to offer expanded commute and flex schedule options to eligible state government employees...
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GEORGIA COMMUTESMART
Opening Our Roads to Promote Business
The Georgia CommuteSmart initiative comes from an Executive Order from Governor Nathan Deal’s office and encourages expanded use of commute options and flexible work scheduling for eligible state employees.
Using flexible scheduling to expand beyond the traditional work schedule will enhance the productivity and efficiency of our state team and lighten the burden congestion places on the private-sector economy. Empowering workers to choose alternatives to driving alone on trips to and from work is also proven to enhance productivity and improve morale, as well as attract and retain talent.
Be the Solution
Each state agency should implement one or more of the following options:
- Scheduling shifts to avoid peak traffic times
- Compressing the 40-hour work week into fewer, longer workdays to reduce commuting
- Teleworking at home or another approved location
- Utilizing alternatives to driving alone, such as carpooling, vanpooling, riding transit, biking or walking
Telework and Compressed Work Week Guidance
Georgia Commute Options offers expert assistance to state agencies at no cost, including:
- Determining how to best improve your bottom-line (facilities, parking, energy, etc.)
- Working with agencies to implement or expand programs
- Providing guidance on assessing jobs and individuals compatible with alternative work arrangements
- Training for teleworkers and their managers
- Program evaluation and reporting
If you’re an agency coordinator, please contact Georgia Commute Options directly to learn more about these free services available to your team.
"Georgia CommuteSmart" (Georgia.gov/Department of Administrative Services) Georgia CommuteSmart
When it comes to Atlanta's metropolitan traffic congestion issues, it has not necessarily been the failure of the government or the private business sector to utilize such alternative commuting options as flex work scheduling and telecommuting/work from home that is the problem.
When it comes to Atlanta's metropolitan traffic congestion issues, the main culprit has been the severe lack of capacity within Atlanta's wholly inadequate metropolitan multimodal transportation network.
For a very large major metro area/region of 6.5 million people that continues to grow and boom, Atlanta has too many people and too many vehicles trying to use a road network that has entirely too few through main and alternative routes (too few freeways and surface arterials) and entirely too little high-capacity transit service to complement it.
Atlanta basically has a regional population of 6.5 million people trying to use a regional multimodal transportation network (both roads and transit) that was designed only to comfortably accommodate a population of about 2.5 million-3 million people tops.
The Atlanta region can basically utilize and encourage and push alternative commuting options (like flex scheduling and telecommuting/work from home/remote work) until the cows come home (...something which the Atlanta region actually appears to do very well as without the region's efforts to encourage high levels of flex scheduling and telecommuting/work from home/remote options, traffic in the Atlanta region would be even WORSE than it already is in many areas).
But even the most robust rates of alternative commuting still isn't enough to solve metro Atlanta's traffic issues alone just simply because of the sheer volume of vehicular traffic (that is generated by a strategically located very large major metro region of 6.5 million residents) that is trying to use a severely undersized metropolitan/regional road network with too few through arterial options and entirely too few transit alternatives.
Atlanta just simply does not have enough surface arterial routes that can be used as alternatives to the undersized freeway system.
Atlanta does not have enough duplicative capacity with multiple cross-regional routes going in the same direction like in a metropolitan road grid network.
And Atlanta does not have anywhere near enough transit capacity for a large major metro region of 6.5 million residents (...Atlanta's metropolitan high-capacity rail transit network, MARTA, basically does not operate outside of the I-285 Perimeter, with the slight exception of the MARTA Red Line that only runs about 3 miles outside of the Perimeter; while the region's suburban commuter bus service (GRTA Xpress) is extremely modest for a large major metro of Atlanta's size and population).
Atlanta basically does not have anywhere near the amount of multimodal transportation infrastructure that it needs to function much more adequately from a mobility standpoint.
The things that we understandably keep on touching upon on these threads in the Atlanta forum is that Atlanta (a region of 6.5 million residents that a massive logistical and industrial hub for the entire Southeastern North American continent) continues to attempt to function with the regional multimodal transportation infrastructure of a significantly smaller metro region often because of a lack of leadership (and often an outright refusal to lead) at Georgia's state level of government.
Last edited by Born 2 Roll; 11-16-2017 at 02:09 AM..
Sad for you. I live near MARTA so I avoid traffic. Great job sitting in traffic while I'm on MARTA laughing at yall. I really love it when people from Gwinnett and Cobb complain about traffic. You voted against MARTA and now you can suffer. I hope traffic for y'all gets worse. Instead of complaining to your county officials you come on here and complain like that's going to help.
Btw intown Atlanta traffic isn't that mad especially since the Braves are gone.
I'm sorry to everyone that thought it was douchy, but that was hilarious. He/She made a choice to live differently because of Metro Atlanta's lack of proper (light) rail system. I live in the burbs of Cobb, but not heavily affected due to my work situation(I don't work in Atlanta), so it doesn't affect me. My wife works in Buckhead, so she deals with it. When we were buying a house a few years ago, I suggested we looked closer to town. She declined. Now guess who wants to find something closer to town?
Not me. That conversation has come up a few times around dinner.
At this point, it's either she deals with the traffic, decides to find work at a hospital in Cobb or we ultimately move closer.
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Originally Posted by Need4Camaro
Congrats WE HAVE A WINNER!!!, You've made it into the MINORITY league! Your grand prize is a plastic trophee perfectly molded into the shape of a MARTA train and you can just throw your arms around yourself and give yourself a GRAND BIG HUG because you did it! Good job for finding a life style that accommodates a train that can't even escape the perimeter! Even better that your field of work is strategically located within reach of an actual transit line! Who cares if your job gets up and moves! You'll figure a way out to get there by MARTA even if they move to MACON! All those lame folk that can't afford fleeting home prices ITP? screw em.. Can't find a job in their proffession ITP? their problem! their choice their lifestyle...YOU ROCK AT LIFE!!!
You can't lie. It was funny.
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Originally Posted by SAAN
Lets just double deck 285 and the connector downtown, along with a tunnel. Cost only seems to matter when it comes to transit, but the state can come up with money for any road project. Just look at these expensive azz HOT lanes in Cobb County. Makes you wonder if that kind of effort was put into a commuter rail extension, how nice the metro ATL would truly be.
AMEN. When I tell people how(rich and not so rich) people on Long Island(NY) take the LIRR to Manhattan and how affluent suburbs in Connecticut have light rail (Metro North) into the city, they don't believe me.
It can work in both Cobb, Gwinnett, even surrounding developing suburbs that need it. These affluent suburbs don't need a full bus line, just a light rail option in town that would allow people to have access to the city, where they can connect to MARTA that then connects to the light rail of other suburbs. Like people in NJ taking the Path Train that connects them to the MTA, The LIRR connects people to the MTA, and Metro North connecting to the MTA and so forth. I know many may not agree, but look at what NYC is doing with it suburbanites taking the train into the city and how they connect.
Extreme NIMBYs can eat a d**k now. I would love to be able to park my car in Marietta at a train station and take a train to town to watch a ball game live, with my sons without being stuck in traffic. But that's just too much to ask for. So TV it is.
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Originally Posted by testa50
It's the time of year. Halloween through Christmas is always a really bad traffic time. Nobody takes vacation now because there are big holidays coming up and school is in, everybody is out shopping, and stores and distributors have seasonal hiring surges that pushes a lot of seasonal traffic onto the roads. Every January, things run a lot smoother.
Look at national traffic maps this afternoon. All of the top 10-12 cities are just slammed with traffic, every day. It's by no means an Atlanta thing.
More generally, concentration of wealth and economic activity to urban areas has caused traffic to get much worse in cities across the country, compounded by a booming economy. If you have recollections of traffic not being so bad in a different city when you used to live there 5-10 years ago, be aware that traffic is probably a lot worse in that city today than it was then.
Great observation.
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Originally Posted by ATLTJL
This is actually an extremely valid point.
The fact of the matter is, Atlanta's highways have A TON of unused capacity. It's just not when most people can see it. But anyone who has ever had a shift job knows that getting out of town at 1pm is smooth sailing. So is coming in.
So, really, if we had more companies offering flexible schedules, we could make a dent. And I don't mean work 7a-4p instead of 8a-5p, I mean let people come in at 5am and leave at 1pm. Or don't come in until 1pm and stay until 9pm. The reason I made those 8 hour shifts is because when you don't take a traditional hour-long lunch break, you get more work done and should be able to work for just 8 hours instead of 9.
The problem is, for whatever reason, our society is pretty hung up on the 9-to-5 lifestyle. Not me, I hate it...that's why I voluntarily exited it last year and went back to shift work! I'm much happier for it, and a big reason why is avoiding the hell of commuting.
Very good analysis, but that could work with certain people and certain industries. But still a great idea.
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