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...is not very good. And ancient and outdated at this point, anyway. I purposefully ignore that supposed 'master plan' document when thinking about potential transit concepts.
Concept 3 was a waste of time, since a decade has gone by since, and they haven't even started to implement any of it. Just another worthless study. Kicking the can. Just like the Georgia commuter rail documents and images from the early 2000's. Could have been great, but as usual, idiots in power prevented it. And they even wasted a ton of free money that the feds offered us for it.
What we need is something like what I'm presenting here. In the clear cut, factual style and manner that I was trying to present it. But of course better, with better data and renderings and such. We need something where there's a solid system plan, a reasonable price tag attached (with state funding assistance), a state-wide or metro-wide vote on it, and then we just simply start to implement it, until it's complete.
All we ever do is plan, and plans just pile on top of other plans. We need action. And in a way that isn't controversial for anyone (doesn't involve MARTA or trying to change the character of the suburbs), doesn't cost a ton relatively speaking (doesn't involve heavy rail going everywhere), and could actually come online and actually be completed before we're all in the nursing home. With minimal disruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt
I can't keep up with you. Last week it was 'trackless trolleys' now it's commuter rail. The plan looks nice and covers majority of the CSA.
Yeah, well, I'm just throwing out different ideas, and concepts. And, these last two big ideas happen to be perfectly compatible, actually. I tried to kind of allude to that.
Basically my overall (cost-effective and comprehensive) Atlanta regional plan would be,
-MARTA heavy rail needs to be expanded up to Windward Pkwy, plus westward a little bit, plus some infill stations, but that's really about it. The Tucker line would be great to have, but wouldn't be totally critical if we had CRT in place. The Stonecrest line, similarly, I'm not opposed to it, but it could be BRT.
-Cobb and Gwinnett could join MARTA or not, but our having quality regional transit connectivity shouldn't need to depend on that at all. That just means they won't get MARTA heavy rail extensions, which, IMHO, they don't really need.
-Implement this Breeze commuter rail plan for the whole region at large. Funded more generally, by the state and/or the large region.
-Within the 5 counties, implement my "trackless tram" proposal in the other thread, which would be a rail-like street transit surface, upgraded in quality from a bus, to get people more excited about transit. And to mimic light rail as much as it can. That would be used to do the smaller scale transit (every 1/4 mile stops), and the connections in various directions between all these commuter rail stations, not just toward Atlanta.
...is not very good. And ancient and outdated at this point, anyway. I purposefully ignore that supposed 'master plan' document when thinking about potential transit concepts.
Concept 3 was a waste of time, since a decade has gone by since, and they haven't even started to implement any of it. Just another worthless study. Kicking the can. Just like the Georgia commuter rail documents and images from the early 2000's. Could have been great, but as usual, idiots in power prevented it. And they even wasted a ton of free money that the feds offered us for it.
What we need is something like what I'm presenting here. In the clear cut, factual style and manner that I was trying to present it. But of course better, with better data and renderings and such. We need something where there's a solid system plan, a reasonable price tag attached (with state funding assistance), a state-wide or metro-wide vote on it, and then we just simply start to implement it, until it's complete.
All we ever do is plan, and plans just pile on top of other plans. We need action. And in a way that isn't controversial for anyone (doesn't involve MARTA or trying to change the character of the suburbs), doesn't cost a ton relatively speaking (doesn't involve heavy rail going everywhere), and could actually come online and actually be completed before we're all in the nursing home. With minimal disruption.
Yeah, well, I'm just throwing out different ideas, and concepts. And, these last two big ideas happen to be perfectly compatible, actually. I tried to kind of allude to that.
Basically my overall (cost-effective and comprehensive) Atlanta regional plan would be,
-MARTA heavy rail needs to be expanded up to Windward Pkwy, plus westward a little bit, plus some infill stations, but that's really about it. The Tucker line would be great to have, but wouldn't be totally critical if we had CRT in place. The Stonecrest line, similarly, I'm not opposed to it, but it could be BRT.
-Cobb and Gwinnett could join MARTA or not, but our having quality regional transit connectivity shouldn't need to depend on that at all. That just means they won't get MARTA heavy rail extensions, which, IMHO, they don't really need.
-Implement this Breeze commuter rail plan for the whole region at large. Funded more generally, by the state and/or the large region.
-Within the 5 counties, implement my "trackless tram" proposal in the other thread, which would be a rail-like street transit surface, upgraded in quality from a bus, to get people more excited about transit. And to mimic light rail as much as it can. That would be used to do the smaller scale transit (every 1/4 mile stops), and the connections in various directions between all these commuter rail stations, not just toward Atlanta.
I have always supported and thought CRT into the suburbs and exurbs would be a great plan. Look at Chicago, Philly, NYC, and Boston CRT network. But it won't be the end all, because it'll most likely be implemented as a peak hour, one way system. We still need our major employment centers (North Fulton, Cumberland, FIB, Peachtree Corners) connected with high quality, dedicated guideway transit. Without new rail along existing freight lines, we won't see RTD A Line-type service.
...is not very good. And ancient and outdated at this point, anyway. I purposefully ignore that supposed 'master plan' document when thinking about potential transit concepts.
Concept 3 was a waste of time, since a decade has gone by since, and they haven't even started to implement any of it. Just another worthless study. Kicking the can. Just like the Georgia commuter rail documents and images from the early 2000's. Could have been great, but as usual, idiots in power prevented it. And they even wasted a ton of free money that the feds offered us for it.
What we need is something like what I'm presenting here. In the clear cut, factual style and manner that I was trying to present it. But of course better, with better data and renderings and such. We need something where there's a solid system plan, a reasonable price tag attached (with state funding assistance), a state-wide or metro-wide vote on it, and then we just simply start to implement it, until it's complete.
All we ever do is plan, and plans just pile on top of other plans. We need action. And in a way that isn't controversial for anyone (doesn't involve MARTA or trying to change the character of the suburbs), doesn't cost a ton relatively speaking (doesn't involve heavy rail going everywhere), and could actually come online and actually be completed before we're all in the nursing home. With minimal disruption.
First, I understand the anxiety of just a plan... and nothing happens. But that isn't the Plan's fault.
Beyond that, it doesn't make the thinking that went into a plan bad. Concept 3 was endorsed just under 10 years ago and the general layout of the land hasn't changed for the greater region.
You haven't really said why Concept 3 is bad yet....
It wasn't a waste of time. It brought many people to the table. It forced people to integrate transit with costs, land-use plans, and it is actually filled with hundreds of little nuances most don't realize looking at a typical line schematics. Things were an existing problem exists and there is an added cost associated with a choice. There is much to learn from this.
Ironically, your map isn't that far off from Concept 3 in terms of commuter rail, so I find the rather harsh criticism interesting. I'm really curious in what ways relating to commuter rail your having issues.
You haven't really said why Concept 3 is bad yet....
I dunno, I just don't like it that much. It just sort of puts a bunch of random lines, makes a bunch of decisions that make no real sense, and then says, "look, connections!" The connections are fine, the technology choices are odd.
Light rail all the way out to Canton? Seriously? But not heavy rail for Northridge and Roswell? You have to transfer to light rail at North Springs MARTA, just to continue on in the same direction?
MARTA infill station at Miami Circle of all places, but not one at Krog St?
Look, I'm not opposed to Concept 3, and I'm all for any type of new transit, in any direction.
But what I'd really like to see is one single system, as described in my OP.
A great regional unifier. Where most all of us everywhere in every county of the greater region, all use the same system, with the same trains and technology, with the same name and brand and funding source. Similar service levels (except the more frequent service in Cobb), and similar station types. And it's the perfect complement to MARTA, which focuses on ITP and North Fulton/GA 400 corridor.
OP note: I changed my mind about Lindbergh, and moved that one back to Lenox. Still same station count.
Well if you want to go after the use of LRT vs HRT you can.
But separate that from how Concept 3 is not a bunch of random lines, but a single system that is designed to provide for mostly single connections to all major parts of the region to most major business centers. It isn't random and is thought out, especially how different lines/systems coordinate together. And this is a key detail that goes missed when people focus on single line expansions or single systems.
Without it, Armour would probably never be made as a station. Looking at a single system it isn't that relevant, but when you look at all cards on the table you start to see how you can manipulate one to work with another better.
LRT was used, because it is actually cheaper. If we build it, it can go further and that is a harsh reality people need to realize. We can build HRT, but it will always be more constrained. LRT was used to Cobb/Cherrokee originally from the increasing problems of using commuter rail service in that corridor. They used LRT over HRT, so they could go far to make up for that problem.
As for LRT to Perimeter... you're right and you're wrong discussing transfers. To continue to Midtown/Downtown, yes it forces a transfer. However with all in on LRT more lines can have transitions. (ie. Gwinnett to Alpharetta, Alpharetta to Cumberland, Cumberland to Gwinnett. Kennesaw to Sugarloaf. Kennesaw to Emory/CDC/Decatur). There are trade-offs here yes, but it isn't as extreme as you lay out. The point is to make all major centers less than a connection a way and start opening up many routes to no transfer routes, but it does depart from the idea that it is only Downtown that gets no transfer access.
But you seem to be missing alot here and I think you need to really look at Concept 3 with fresh eyes. CRT alone is not a single cohesive solution. It only really effectively delivers people directly to Downtown by itself.
You have to start looking at where and how people transfer into different directions and the amount of time it takes in travel. Concept 3 does that.
They are bridging the gap between Commuter rail and how people get to Emory... commuter rail and how people get to Cumberland
I would kill for just about any of these proposals..any of them are better than the mess we have now.. I wish GADOT were reading this.
It would work wonders.
PrimalTech, I strongly urge you to suggest and send this to the GADOT. What's the worse that can happen? I love the idea. It would do wonders for the Metro Area. Definitely in the right direction.
Good plan in general, extremely close to one I drew out. When I get a chance (maybe tonight) I'll post my maps which show a bit more detail about the stations themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
*SNIP*
-Athens/Lawrenceville line will likely not join the Covington line.
Operational reason: That mainline actually continues west and then goes south into the city through Howell Junction. It is somewhat important we stick to the mainline to an extent. Any time you interchange trains between two mainlines, you have to schedule the train on both. Any time you're on a mainline you will hold up other operations, so it is best to only affect 1 with each train set when possible. The rail you're using is called the Inman Belt. It isn't a mainline as much as a low-speed track that CSX uses to interchange a few trains between Hulsey Yard and the Seaboard Line and possibly the occasional movements south on the A&WP. In short this means low-speed, tighter curves, less improved road crossings
This isn't an issue. Trains interchange here more than you probably think and both lines come under one dispatcher. CSX's "AD" dispatcher desk covers everything north of Lithonia, south of Tucker, south of Elizabeth, and north of the South End of Peachtree City. This is a far cry from trying to navigate Howell, and cross both the NS line as well as CSX's own Chattanooga line and deal with all the slow trackage on that side of town from roughly Piedmont Hospital.
The speed of this line (also called the Parkline) doesn't matter too much. It should be relativel easy to bump the speed to 30mph for the 2.8 miles with minimal impact. The road crossings are also fine, one is a quiet zone equipped with either four-quadrant gates or two, full-width gates on each side.
Quote:
Commuter reason: As tough as it is, I would scratch the station at Lindbergh. There is a critical junction in this city with no existing station that has yet to get full realization, but it is of critical importance. It is Armour/Armour yard. It is the convergences of CSX and NS to the northeast of town, the Beltline, a future route to Emory/CDC,N/NE MARTA tracks, and the previously planned LRT to Cobb. It would be a primary connecting point for Gwinnett commuters to Cumberland, Buckhead, Perimeter, Midtown, Emory/CDC, and the airport
Armour isn't all that critical. Everything you speak of except the junction of CSX/NS wil go into Lindbergh. Transferring between CRT lines here would offer very little benefit.
Quote:
The other general thing is it isn't uncommon for some European cities To have 1 to 3 major connecting points that trains continue onto. This also isn't bad, because many trainsets will be one way once a day and need a storage yard and you don't want to store them in the central part of the city.
I would have the southbound trains continue after Five Points and terminate at the airport, this is an additional boon for Athens and Gainesville.
I would also have the two southern lines and the Convington line continue to Armour Yard for the same aforementioned reasons.
This is definitely needed, though not necessarily to the short degree you state here. I envision trains running through essentially the full length of the lines to provide reverse commute service. A central yard will still definitely be needed, but equipment utilization can be greatly improved by running say Covington trains all the way through to Acworth, or Gainesville trains through the airport to Newnan or Peachtree City.
Quote:
Here is the catch...
Commuter rail is often about seeking savings by sharing rail with freight trains. This isn't Long Island and we will never be able to function like LIRR. These mainlines are MAJOR regional (not Atlanta region, but Southeast region) critical junctions and are very busy.
We won't be able to achieve all day two-way service in most cases, but we can achieve commuter-based much easier.
While I don't think we'll get <30 minute midday headways on every line, I do think 1-2 hour headway midday service is easily achievable once the lines are upgraded. Freight can run on the reverse track and thread around passenger trains if needed.
Quote:
To even do that we have to invest in critical areas heavily. To no small degree Howell Junction and I believe to operate most effectively the most expensive lynchpin would be to built an additional commuter-only track from the Airport to Armour (through Howell Junction), of course the city not taking this into account allowing new intown growth is a critical problem to this. This would allow more lee-way to having trains effectively traveling both ways between Armour and the airport.
It also opens us up to starting up an all-day/two-way airport service between downtown and Armour.
Make no mistakes, this would be an expensive investment.
This I generally agree with, though I'd take the dedicated passenger tracks (minimum of two, ideally four) and run them past Inman and Tilford yards splitting to the west end of those yards. Speed should be 110mph.
Quote:
Other general things just to note:
- The Northwest Lines are the most problematic corridors. It goes to the Midwest where there is a high degree of manufacturing, but it is also where a good deal of raw materials comes from.... to no small extent coal for much of our power plants and industry. Expect the need for more trackage between Howell Junction and Austell and Howell Junction and Marietta.
This is also why certain RR corridors in Cobb County have full grade separation with many roads, while others throughout the region don't. A little factoid many don't realize as they're driving around on a daily basis.
-There is one small note here for Woodstock. Forgetting commuter rail for a second...If Cobb ever gets HRT or LRT service there is one unique option that only exists in this one area. The tracks from Marietta to Canton is a shortline that is somewhat improved. It is the GNRR, Georgia Northeaster Railroad. Passenger trains can only currently operate at 15 mph. With some RR crossing improvements and some changes to a few curves, it could be extensively used for passenger operations when others in the region can't be. With a single passing siding, it could probably operate two-way trains every 30 minutes during the day between Canton and Marietta beyond any one-way commuter only trainsets that go to downtown/Airport. *SNIP*
I too have thought of this line as a branch line off the mainline, run with tilting DMUs for high acceleration and higher speed on the numerous curves, but extended to Ball Ground instead of stopping at Canton, basically I-575, with the option for 2-4x day semi-regional service as far as Ellijay or Blue Ridge. For this line, I was figuring that operationally, there would be an additional pocket platform at Marietta to allow these trains to terminate/originate most of the day, with a select handful proceeding to Atlanta and maybe the airport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
First, I understand the anxiety of just a plan... and nothing happens. But that isn't the Plan's fault.
Beyond that, it doesn't make the thinking that went into a plan bad. Concept 3 was endorsed just under 10 years ago and the general layout of the land hasn't changed for the greater region.
You haven't really said why Concept 3 is bad yet....
It wasn't a waste of time. It brought many people to the table. It forced people to integrate transit with costs, land-use plans, and it is actually filled with hundreds of little nuances most don't realize looking at a typical line schematics. Things were an existing problem exists and there is an added cost associated with a choice. There is much to learn from this.
Ironically, your map isn't that far off from Concept 3 in terms of commuter rail, so I find the rather harsh criticism interesting. I'm really curious in what ways relating to commuter rail your having issues.
I'll have a go at this.
The LRT idea from Cumberland to Gwinnett Arena is impractical. They're trying to integrate two different routes into one. Perimeter *RT should either stop at Doraville, or continue to Northlake. If you want to serve the I-85 corridor directly (as an adjunct to the two CRT corridors on either side), then HRT extended from Doraville is the better idea.
Following somewhat from the above, making Norcross the northeast OTP node is silly. Doraville is more of a destination in and of itself, and much more of an existing crossroads.
The LRT up to Windward is just silly, and I'm afraid may have substantially damaged the support for HRT among the politicians when they see ARC proposing LRT.
There's the orphan LRT segment between Stonecrest and Conyers. Unless they fed parameters into a computer and just pasted the output onto a map unedited, who would seriously think that's a good idea? I mean seriously, what was running through the author's mind? It's two miles Stonecrest-Sigman, either run HRT or just leave CRT there at Sigman.
There's another orphan streetcar segment from...W. Marietta @ Marietta? Over to Perry.
Miami Circle and Armour HRT stations are unnecessary, MC is outer walking distance from Lindbergh, local bus/circulator ideally, Armour is also better served by LRT/bus rather than slowing down the Red and Gold lines with three stations practically touching platforms to each other.
They left Cobb out entirely from any high capacity transit. They also didn't show commuter rail to Peachtree City or Jackson/Macon.
The Madison CRT is too long, it really should terminate at Covington, maybe Social Circle at best. I know it was part of the original plan, but really Conyers is the last Atlanta-centric community along that line, but Covington is still a big city with plenty of regional offices and factories, and is indeed growing.
So as you can see, lots of problems here with Concept 3. I seriously have no idea what they were thinking with some of these.
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