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That's basically what ramp meters do, and yes, they do make merging more fluid but they also push the problem back onto the surface streets if the ramps are not long enough and the meters' intervals are too long. From what I have seen, the interval between greens (between cars allowed to advance onto the highway) is often too long, which then results in backups.
I gnash my teeth when I see a chain of cars tailgating each other at relatively high speed on an on-ramp ; it's dangerous and counterproductive. But leaving too much space is problematic, too.
Freedom Parkway going onto the Connector North.
North Druid Hills going onto 85N.
Not necessarily no, He is saying that they need to be consistent.. example... I-285 WB in Cobb between Northside Dr and Cobb Plkwy (the area of the I-285 / I-75 interchange. The interstate is approximately 6 -
7 lanes each direction when you approach the I-75 interchange. 3 lanes merge off to I-75, 3 lanes remain on I-285 WB. The left lane on I-285 WB ends right over the I-75 overpass, right before the entrance ramp from I-75 merge..which is a very poor design because what happens is.. 3 lanes of I-285 WB traffic (heading toward I-20) are bottle necked into 2 lanes in a quarter of a mile from where I-75 traffic leaves the highway, then 3 lanes of I-75 traffic (2 from I-75 South, 1 from I-75 North) merge in right after this bottle neck jamming practically funneling cars onto a 4 lane highway that was 7 lanes just prior to the junction, and also right after a heavy bottle neck into another bottle neck.. They didn't have much room there...but this is an example of how poorly our highways are planned and why even though certain sections have alot of lanes they're forced to come to a crawl through certain interchanges.
Spaghetti Junction's ramps onto I-85 north is another horrible example too.
Look at the interchanges in Charlotte NC on I-485, they are very consistent and smooth, albeit alot of them were also design before too much growth happened around those specific areas.. but it shows how far modern interchanges have come since the design of our roads in the metro.
Another issue, albeit this would be much harder to correct - are the surface exits themselves.. your capacity is only as good as your smallest bottleneck, for example, I-285 top end, 8 lanes each way, but if every one of them are trying to get off at Ashford Dunwoody or Peachtree Dunwoody and those exits only have 2 lanes ... then of course... the rest of the highway is going to clog even if it had 16 lanes in one direction because everyone has to slow down and merge over and fit a huge volume into a compact space.
Atlanta's entrance and exit ramps are 30 year old designs. Those on 85 North are so outdated and designed for significantly less traffic. Clairmont and North Druid Hills ramps create dangerous situations on I-85 from people trying to exit the freeway but unable to get off.
Atlanta's entrance and exit ramps are 30 year old designs. Those on 85 North are so outdated and designed for significantly less traffic. Clairmont and North Druid Hills ramps create dangerous situations on I-85 from people trying to exit the freeway but unable to get off.
What really seems out of place is all the brand new signs they have been throwing up all over Georgia which makes the highway look practically new again and then they lead you up to an off ramp that looks like it was designed in the 70's.
BUT...
I will disgress to say, I absolutely HATE Texas interchanges in the rural areas.. they often times throw you off the highway into a two way frontage road with little to no slow down or speed up space. In the cities they're state of the art, love their urban freeways, but out in the countries...you better have some good acceleration if you're trying to merge onto the highway.
Freedom Parkway going onto the Connector North.
North Druid Hills going onto 85N.
Both prime examples of that.
Yup. And Delk Road onto I-75 southbound, before the ramp meters were temporarily disabled for the toll lane construction. I am dreading their being turned back on.
Tolls are not going to reduce traffic...period...there's plenty of metro's with toll-roads much higher than $5 daily round trip and that does zilch for keeping them unclogged. Think of driving into Manhatten, or Driving anywhere in New England, likewise even Orlando Florida... ...The idea only works in theory..but in a real world...there's too many other factors that are not considered or unseen.
Tolls are not going to reduce traffic...period...there's plenty of metro's with toll-roads much higher than $5 daily round trip and that does zilch for keeping them unclogged. Think of driving into Manhatten, or Driving anywhere in New England, likewise even Orlando Florida... ...The idea only works in theory..but in a real world...there's too many other factors that are not considered or unseen.
Really? You have never considered a trip somewhere and then looked up the cost to get there and decided to skip it? You think if people had to pay $20 one-way to drive a section of road many would not adjust to find alternatives?
Really? You have never considered a trip somewhere and then looked up the cost to get there and decided to skip it? You think if people had to pay $20 one-way to drive a section of road many would not adjust to find alternatives?
Nope, the only times I have considered not going anywhere is because I don't feel like dealing with Atlanta rush hour. I'm not trying to brag but Im trying to show you just how much I and most Atlantans value driving on top of which how little of an impact any financial toll will really have on the general public. They will likely sacrifice other things long before they sacrifice driving.
I have paid up to $13 one way to bypass it on the short stretch between GA-316 and I-285 and have done this while commuting from Gwinnett to Kennesaw on a daily basis 5 days a week. This is a toll, about $10 in gas one way, and an hour and a half in traffic. Did not financially damage me in the slightest... it was very annoying but you gatta pay to play...
Also though, I have never had a job ITP, ever - since I've lived here..so this toll would do absolutely zilch for me..and believe it or not a good portion of Atlanta's work force does not actually work in Downtown, thats not to say EVERYONE but these days most of the jobs are up GA-400 north / I-285 north end, I-85 north. and I-75 north.
As for the toll, this same logic applies to just about any American city, To get into downtown San Francisco you have to pay a toll to cross the bridge at I-80, tacked on with driving (and gas out there is nearly $4 per gallon without exagurating) its not cheap to drive, but they still had bad traffic. It costs a pretty penny to cross the bridges into Manhatten, or to use the New Jersey Turnpike, or to drive just about anywhere in New England. Same thing for Orlando FL. It's an idea that only works in theory, but it does not consider alot of real world variables.
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For me specifically though, I have driven cars that required premium fuel when gas was almost $5.00 per gallon, it wasn't fun - but it never stopped me from getting to where I need to go. If they ever "MADE ME" pay $500 per month to commute ITP (assuming my job was ITP - which it isnt), I would just move out of Atlanta. There's far too many places in this country I can work where I wouldn't have to put up with bogus stuff like that.
What about the commuters who are trying to make a living though? Not everyone can afford a home ITP - General idea is the closer you live to Atlanta exponentially you're going to pay more..a few may get lucky, but for those who do work downtown, you're pretty much telling them you're going to charge them an extra $500 per month just because they have a job ITP..which is shrudely unfair (and unrealistic) -- If you were getting a job at McDonalds, Krogers, some chain retail store where you're a manager - then yes..you have alittle more control over where you work. If you're in a proffession however, its not as easy as it sounds to just get a job anywhere you please. Some people commute because they have to. Not everyone has or wants to spend $300k + for a house ITP, or wants (or even can) live in an apartment.. your idea is narrow minded and it only partially handles a problem while creating several larger problems .. but it is unrealistic. merely... it's a fantasy.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 12-01-2017 at 08:46 AM..
Tolls are not going to reduce traffic...period...there's plenty of metro's with toll-roads much higher than $5 daily round trip and that does zilch for keeping them unclogged. Think of driving into Manhatten, or Driving anywhere in New England, likewise even Orlando Florida... ...The idea only works in theory..but in a real world...there's too many other factors that are not considered or unseen.
If you make a toll high enough, it will reduce usage of that road, at least by a little bit. But a little bit is a lot, when it comes to freeway congestion.
And if you make an express lane some ridiculous expensive toll for cars, but totally free for commuter transit, that can only have a good effect for the bus. Which in turn gets more commuters onto the bus, which in turn reduces that many vehicles. So there's an indirect mechanism there that might reduce congestion slightly.
But anyway, all that would only really be a secondary goal of my proposal. The main goal of it is all the funds that would be collected from the toll. So really in that sense, I'm hoping that it doesn't reduce traffic.
The funds would go towards transit connectivity improvements across the region, including building new commuter rail lines. Which also won't help with traffic, but will give people the option to bypass the traffic.
Reducing traffic is not what we need to do around here, if it even can be done. What we need to do is reduce and manage average commute times, from different points across the metro. Mass transit is the way to go.
For me specifically though, I have driven cars that required premium fuel when gas was almost $5.00 per gallon, it wasn't fun - but it never stopped me from getting to where I need to go. If they ever "MADE ME" pay $500 per month to commute ITP (assuming my job was ITP - which it isnt), I would just move out of Atlanta. There's far too many places in this country I can work where I wouldn't have to put up with bogus stuff like that.
What about the commuters who are trying to make a living though? Not everyone can afford a home ITP - General idea is the closer you live to Atlanta exponentially you're going to pay more..a few may get lucky, but for those who do work downtown, you're pretty much telling them you're going to charge them an extra $500 per month just because they have a job ITP..which is shrudely unfair (and unrealistic) -- If you were getting a job at McDonalds, Krogers, some chain retail store where you're a manager - then yes..you have alittle more control over where you work. If you're in a proffession however, its not as easy as it sounds to just get a job anywhere you please. Some people commute because they have to. Not everyone has or wants to spend $300k + for a house ITP, or wants (or even can) live in an apartment.. your idea is narrow minded and it only partially handles a problem while creating several larger problems .. but it is unrealistic. merely... it's a fantasy.
Well, $500 a month equals $12.50 one-way toll which is quite possible. And highways are quite expensive, so users picking up their fair share is indeed "fair".
And yeah, the "Atlanta is full" crowd would be just fine with you leaving the metro. But many more jobs and people will be attracted to the region if they are now able to pay $500/m less in taxes. And many homes closer in can be found for much cheaper than OTP. Many poor people live in the city exactly because it is the best balance of affordable living and offers better jobs. So this will make Atlanta a much better place for everyone. Those that prefer urban living will actually have that choice because costs are on a level playing field and urban living gets even better with more people adopting it. And those that still want to pay the full costs for a suburban lifestyle actually get the benefit of being able to drive around and commute in a reasonable time (or keep up a longer surface-street commute to save money on tolls).
Either way, highways are a luxury. You can still get around without them. If you want to get somewhere faster you should expect to pay more for that billions of dollars of infrastructure. Not have that cost placed on tax payers as a whole and then end up just as grid-locked as if you took the same surface streets.
Well, $500 a month equals $12.50 one-way toll which is quite possible. And highways are quite expensive, so users picking up their fair share is indeed "fair".
I don't get where you are getting that users are not already "paying" for highways.. The way you come off it seems like you have some general idea that there is no system in place setup for users to pay for these roads. Truly are you implying that our taxes at the pump and our state tax as well as other tax sources are not diverted to our roads? Because technically from my understanding, EVERYONE pays for Highways, even people who don't drive - meaning if you diverted those funds only to "users" the highways would actually receive LESS funding, not more...essentially defeating the purpose if funding was ever an issue in maintaining them and although GADOT's budget is sickly low, they do a fair job at up-keeping them...although...thats about all they really do.
Now the bigger thing is, what about those who don't drive.. first hand it looks unfair but it actually isn't..because everything you receive (your groceries, your clothes, your computer, the materials that designed your house, your furniture.) all of these things that are so massly available to the expense of the public are here because of our Interstates, yes..the same could be done with surface level roads, but at nowhere near the capacity that our country consumes them. Putting everything on Freight Trains does not work either - this type of delivery is designated for items of which do not need to be stocked for a reasonable amount of time.
Look at it like this, If you have electricity, even if you use absolutely no power at your house, you will still pay a bill. You know why? Maintenance fee. You're paying for the maintenance of the power grid to keep power readily available to yourself, and to others...and for roads, even if you're not using them..you're paying for your goods, your services and the like - to be readily available..there's more to highways than just driving on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh
And yeah, the "Atlanta is full" crowd would be just fine with you leaving the metro. But many homes closer in can be found for much cheaper than OTP. Many poor people live in the city exactly because it is the best balance of affordable living and offers better jobs. So this will make Atlanta a much better place for everyone. Those that prefer urban living will actually have that choice because costs are on a level playing field and urban living gets even better with more people adopting it. And those that still want to pay the full costs for a suburban lifestyle actually get the benefit of being able to drive around and commute in a reasonable time (or keep up a longer surface-street commute to save money on tolls).
When you live in a dense area at an "Affordable" price, you will almost always compromise something - if you're fine with the compromise then thats fine but for many, they would rather not deal with said compromise. If its affordable, and in the city.. the chances of it being "safe" are slim, but lets say that it is safe... Is it large enough to comfortably suite the needs of your family? what if you have pets? Or... What if you are particular about where your child grows up and his environment? Likewise, some people truly do not enjoy living too close to their neighbors. You see.. you're thinking based on your life style, and your values.. and you're trying to model everyone elses lifestyle and values into your own, and you cannot do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh
Either way, highways are a luxury. You can still get around without them. If you want to get somewhere faster you should expect to pay more for that billions of dollars of infrastructure. Not have that cost placed on tax payers as a whole and then end up just as grid-locked as if you took the same surface streets.
Once upon a time...
...in a not so distant future...
There was a mayor named jsvh who ruled over Atlanta and its metro with an Iron fist and if someone so much as cranked their automobile - he and the local Jurisdictions would immediately cease that individual's car keys and with a stern look on his face citate that individual with a stern remark: YOU DON'T NEED THIS! ... and off to the bus stop that man had to hike .. from his ranch in Buford to the nearest park and ride, or approximately 10 miles .. on a cold and wet December in Atlanta Georgia... The End.
In seriousness... last time I checked most drivers on the highway are indeed those paying taxpayers.. I'm lost as to how you figure they're getting away with something .. if anything they're actually helping you by justifying a need for that road rather than not using it and the road goes away and the taxes get repurposed into other things that will seldomly be for the benefit of the public. Those roads are the reason you're able to get your goods within a reasonable time.
Also another misunderstanding is that, Highways are not designed to get people anywhere faster. That is a bi-product of their presence. Highways are designed for inter-regional transportation.. or essentially..driving someplace that is not local. It keeps inter-regional traffic from funneling through towns and roads that cannot handle that volume of traffic putting the maintenance expenses on those very towns or local jurisdictions.
...Did you know that the original plan for the Eisenhower Interstate System was to completely go around the cities with spur routes that lead into them? The idea that changed this is chambers of commerce saw these roads as a potential to grow and use these roads for economic convenience and ultimately profit... there is no replacement for a high speed road that literally takes you within an instance of your destination versus trying to crawl between several urban municipalities on a surface road that is only meant to feed those towns. Highways are not a luxury. They have their place. Germany was the first to design an official system and we quickly designed one right after it - because these roads were included as a system of the national defense network (in both countries) - Today in modern times, we have not "seen" the fullest function of these roads only because (and I pray it remains that way) we haven't had to. BUT...
I can rest assure to you, Atlanta would NOT be what it is today if the Downtown Connector did not exist, likewise all of the interstates that feed into this city, nor would any other American city .. they are definitely necessary if we were to desire to retain this modern sense of society.. with everything there are drawbacks.. you can't have yin without yang..highways bring traffic..
Also.. Most every country on this planet now has a controlled access network of highways, even third world countries... just to show you if even they're willing to pay for these "costly roads" ..they definitely have a purpose.
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.. if anything they're actually helping you by justifying a need for that road rather than not using it and the road goes away and the taxes get repurposed into other things that will seldomly be for the benefit of the public. Those roads are the reason you're able to get your goods within a reasonable time.
