City of Atlanta Releases Draft of New Transportation Plan

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

This is a valid point, but it is still the responsibility of the person crossing to do so at a safe moment. And if there is a crosswalk within a reasonable distance, it should be used. People cross Marietta Blvd. all the time between Coronet and Bolton Road. It's exactly half a nile between the two, and there are three crosswalk locations. Instead, I watch as a mom and her three kids run across the road, 200 feet from a signalized crosswalk. That's just irresponsible.

I love how people who will walk 1.5 miles to a store complain about having to walk an extra 100 feet, but have no problem telling me I should drive five miles out of my way.

You don’t have to drive five miles out of the way! Just 10 MPH slower

But seriously, I think we generally agree that everyone should use better caution and better leverage the infrastructure in place (as well as expand infrastructure where there is a dearth).

On a personal standpoint, I was absolutely appalled at the lack of infrastructure along Buford Highway when I first moved here. It’s improved, but it and other roads (such as Marietta BLVD as you mentioned) could use a significant improvement. I am excited to watch many of our corridors grow and have much needed improvements installed in the years to come.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Now that is ridiculous as well as insulting, jsvh.

Of course a driver is at fault if he's speeding, drunk, texting or otherwise not paying attention.

But pedestrians have responsibilities, too. If you leave the sidewalk, decline to use the nearby signalized crosswalk, and venture into a busy 5-6 lane highway in the dark and at a point where there is no intersection, then yeah, you are probably not exercising reasonable care for your own safety.

Originally Posted by samiwas1

Seriously? Do these two situations remotely compare in your mind? If so, you have some serious issues.

Someone voluntarily choosing to cross a busy road without paying attention IN NO WAY resembles someone stuck in an active shooter situation.



You. Are. Wrong. Some off the problem lies with cars and design. Some lies with pedestrians and bikers being irresponsible. Sorry, but this is a fact. If you walk into a busy road without making any attempt to do so safely, then you are the root of the problem. Just like if you manage to get onto a MARTA track and electrocute yourself on the third rail, it's not the fault of the third rail.

I've brought up this example several times for when I almost killed a guy. He was running at 1AM, wearing all black, on a 4-lane arterial without lighting, in the traffic lane, and against traffic. Please explain how it would have been my fault, and how he holds no responsibility.

I have no way to quantify that. If we tried to avoid any possibility of accidental death, we would have to stay at home and never do any activity. My grandmother died after tripping on a sidewalk. The world is a big, busy place, and unfortunately death will happen in some situations. We can do what we can to mitigate the issue, but at some point, you also have to get pedestrians and bikers to behave responsibly as well.

And the victim blaming continues.

The pedestrian is at fault because they wore all black? Ha. Nope.

It is like you dug a canal between peoples home and work, filled it with sharks. And keep blaming the swimmers for not "waiting until it is safe" to swim across.

Most of these people dying in the streets are not just throwing themselves into traffic without a care. They are situations that you, me, and most anyone else would make the same decision to cross that street.

Everyone makes mistakes, especially with hindsight, but you got to stop focusing on the mistakes of the victims and start working to minimize the many mistakes that drivers make.

[MattCW]

Except a shark is actually going to go after said swimmer. Do you really think that drivers actively hunt down pedestrians?

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Except a shark is actually going to go after said swimmer. Do you really think that drivers actively hunt down pedestrians?

I think both will follow their instincts and the environment they are in and will result in people dying. Neither situation due to any malice.

Expecting either sharks or fast drivers to not kill people is stupid. But to put them in a situation where they can is wrong and needs to be corrected. Those creating that environment need to be held accountable.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by jsvh

I think both will follow their instincts and the environment they are in and will result in people dying. Neither situation due to any malice.

Expecting either sharks or fast drivers to not kill people is stupid. But to put them in a situation where they can is wrong and needs to be corrected. Those creating that environment need to be held accountable.

Serious question- who do you think should be liable? Pedestrians? Drivers? Design engineers who stamped the infrastructure drawings? Legislators permitting such engineering designs? How would we define which areas have to be addressed to a specific standard?

To me, it all hinges on what is permitted by the state and federal DOT.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Serious question- who do you think should be liable? Pedestrians? Drivers? Design engineers who stamped the infrastructure drawings? Legislators permitting such engineering designs? How would we define which areas have to be addressed to a specific standard?

To me, it all hinges on what is permitted by the state and federal DOT.

Mostly we need to grow the voice of the public that is already there in many groups pushing for safer streets. Legal liability / the courts are only one small part of where that battle needs to take place. But yes, engineers, legislators, state + federal DOT, or anyone else that continues to knowingly push for, permit, & design places in a dangerous manner need to face accountability.

If you design a building with a known flaw that kills people you are liable. If you make a food product with a known flaw that kills people you are liable. Heck, most anything else you make with a known flaw that kills people you are liable. Why should roads be any different?

It is not like we are talking small potatoes with this either. Cars which are the number one killer up to age 24 in the US (When chronic diseases take over as the leading cause).

Car deaths are at unacceptable levels. Time for action.

[cqholt]

American society accepts traffic fatalities as part of doing business.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by jsvh

And the victim blaming continues.

The pedestrian is at fault because they wore all black? Ha. Nope.

Yes. If he's wearing all black at night and running in the middle of a major road against traffic, that is his fault. He made the decision to do something so careless and without any concern for himself or anyone else. He's a ****ing idiot. Stop trying to pass these poor decisions onto others. If he was injured or killed, or caused a driver to swerve away causing an accident, due to the fact that he's invisible wearing all black at night, that's on him. 100%.

It is like you dug a canal between peoples home and work, filled it with sharks. And keep blaming the swimmers for not "waiting until it is safe" to swim across.

Yes. It's like there's a canal full of sharks, and a bridge across said canal just a few hundred feet down. But instead of walking to the bridge and crossing there, or looking to see if the sharks weren't nearby at the moment, I just jumped in and swam across without paying any attention whatsoever. If I got eaten, that would be my own fault.

Most of these people dying in the streets are not just throwing themselves into traffic without a care. They are situations that you, me, and most anyone else would make the same decision to cross that street.

Well, I'd certainly pay very close attention to oncoming cars. It takes a car going 50MPH, 7 seconds to travel 500'. That's on a major road with higher speed limits. The average person walks about 30 feet in 7 seconds. On a road with cars traveling at 40 MPH, you have 8.5 seconds. 30 is 11.5. You should be able to figure out very quickly if you can make it across the road in a span of time.

So, the road we're talking about is about 60' wide. The average person walking at standard walking speed (i.e., making no attempt to do so swiftly) could cross that entire road about 14 seconds. If you were crossing where that dude was in the example, how far away would a car have to be oncoming to where you'd feel safe starting to cross the road. How close would be too close and dangerous?

Where the first car is oncoming?
Where the white car is in the center lane?
At the start of the bend?
Anything visible?

Everyone makes mistakes, especially with hindsight, but you got to stop focusing on the mistakes of the victims and start working to minimize the many mistakes that drivers make.

I'm looking at both. You seem to be blaming only drivers for every encounter.

Originally Posted by jsvh

Mostly we need to grow the voice of the public that is already there in many groups pushing for safer streets. Legal liability / the courts are only one small part of where that battle needs to take place. But yes, engineers, legislators, state + federal DOT, or anyone else that continues to knowingly push for, permit, & design places in a dangerous manner need to face accountability.

If you design a building with a known flaw that kills people you are liable. If you make a food product with a known flaw that kills people you are liable. Heck, most anything else you make with a known flaw that kills people you are liable. Why should roads be any different?

So, if a road has nice sidewalks, signalized crosswalks every 500 feet, decent median, and someone still chooses to cross wherever they so feel and get hit, who are you going to blame? How much can we protect against someone making a bad decision?

It is not like we are talking small potatoes with this either. Cars which are the number one killer up to age 24 in the US (When chronic diseases take over as the leading cause).

Car deaths are at unacceptable levels. Time for action.

By numbers, they're at around what they were in the 50s, when the population was half of what it is now. As a rate of miles traveled, it's near the lowest levels of all time.

Keep in mind that falls (mostly tripping on rugs) and falling down stairs killed tens of thousands per year, too. But, there's only so much we can do to prevent that.