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So if your "~9 dollars a day not including maintenance, car purchase, yearly tax or vehicle tax. " is somehow too personal to go into detail, lets walk through my commute costs. I have said before here that I often commute downtown to the airport area. If I decide I want the convenience of driving, how should I figure out how much more money to allow for each daily commute over my $4.25 MARTA fare? I go 10 miles, Five Points to Airport Station to keep your math easy. You have already said you are "not including maintenance, car purchase, yearly tax or vehicle tax" so we can skip that. What should we include?
Include what you want. It’s your commute dude.
I don’t even understand what the goal of this exercise is. Why is it hard for you to believe I spend ~9 bucks a day on gas alone with our current prices?
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Originally Posted by jsvh
Since Atlanta is growing, both would mean more driving.
And still, you are avoiding the bigger question: Why should we spend money subsidizing drivers? By your own account even with that subsidy it is still too experience for the poor. Shouldn't that subsidy money be better spent on things like police, sidewalks, parks, and transit?
More driving in raw numbers will increase until viable alternatives are made. I know you are the type to add an extra 1-2 hours to your commute on principle of taking transit over driving but I hope understand most people wouldn’t .
As for your question ; naw I think roads are still important. The solution isn’t all or nothing.
Do you think the true cost of a hot dog at MBS is $2?
I can buy a pack of hot dogs at the store for a couple of bucks. I guarantee you that hot dog they buy in bulk and serve is nowhere near $2, even with costs of operations included. Do you think a small bucket of popcorn at the movies actually cost $6?
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The true cost of MARTA to my pocket is $2.50. So every time someone considers a MARTA ride is worth it, they ask themselves is that trip worth $5 round trip.
Yeah...to your pocket. But you don't know what the actual trip costs, because the costs are so highly subsidized and hidden.
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You cannot tell me what a five mile trip is worth in your car.
A five-mile trip for me is worth about $2.60, including all gas, taxes, maintenance, parking, services, etc.
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You cannot even have a real discussion about subsidies if you cannot even figure out what you are paying out of pocket to do your commute every day. Let alone if it is worth it to drive five miles further down the road to save $5 dollars on a purchase. If I am taking MARTA I will just save the time and pay the extra $5 at the store across the street instead of going across town because I know how much MARTA costs me.
Do you think that the cost of the trip is the only factor? There is SO much more to it.
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That should show just how disconnected people are from the subsidized costs of driving. People don't even have a clue what it costs them to drive a trip they do every single day.
And you are so disconnected from the subsidized costs of transit, bike lanes, sidewalks, and everything else, you have no clue what any of those costs.
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Originally Posted by jsvh
Nope. I am not.
I am asking you how much you pay out of pocket for your daily car commute.
If the government or a private company wanted offer a new commute option that is less than your given car commute, what price would they need to beat? You don't know.
We can't even compare subsidies effectively because out of pocket costs for cars are so hidden and subsidized people have no clue what they are paying for a commute they do every day.
Just as hidden for transit. Hell...your fare doesn't even go towards capital costs at all. All of the capital projects are paid for by others!
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Originally Posted by Otakumaster
This should be said about transit also and anything else that is subsidized. This weird spin to make drivers look like the leaches doesn't do your cause justice.
Yep...complete disconnect from reality. Every post since the first one I noticed (streets will have to be closed to let the dangerous human driver pass) has gone further and further into bizarro world.
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Originally Posted by jsvh
So what is the that cost? How much money would you need to save to make a 5 mile drive worth it?
Money is but a fraction of the decision process. It would have to be cheap, get me directly from point A to point B without lots of walking, be frequent, be fast, be comfortable, and all sorts of other things. The dollar amount alone doesn't matter as much as those others. You know, just like I'll fly Delta before I fly Spirit, even though they might both get me to the same place in the same amount of time, but Spirit does it much cheaper.
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If you don't know and just keep driving and using public services like roads without concern for the cost, maybe you should feel a bit like a leach.
But, you don't feel like a leach, because you believe you deserve the subsidies. Question...are you what is considered "millennial"?
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Claim what you will about subsidies for things such as Amtrak, MegaBus, airlines, and MARTA but there is a cost you pay up front for those you know at least what is coming out of your pocket. Cars you don't know what you are paying and a lot of people seem to treat it like freeloaders and drive everywhere.
So, even though your ride is being more subsidized than drivers' trips, the drivers are the leaches?
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Originally Posted by jsvh
Yet, we have subsidized and hidden the costs of driving so most people will turn their nose up at a $2.50 MARTA fare and think they are somehow saving money by driving instead.
You think people are really stupid and that you are a genius, don't you?
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Originally Posted by jsvh
Don't agree with your 90%, but even 10% is still too much.
With my 90%? It was directly from the GDOT's Budget Proposal. It wasn't my number, it was the GDOT's. I've posted it numerous times. So, I guess you're calling the GDOT liars or something.
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Originally Posted by jsvh
Really? How much are you paying each day you drive to work? I pay $4.25 round trip for MARTA.
Based on my 52¢ a mile above (which is actually using a low number of miles), my round trip is about $12.48. But, I make that trip in about 25 minutes each way. The fastest MARTA trip is about 105 minutes, more than four times as long. I don't know about you, but I will pay an extra $8 to save almost there hours of my day.
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If cars are really the best way for you to get around, great. Start paying your tolls and for your parking and enjoy it. But they do not warrant subsidies like sidewalks, parks, transit, and police do.
If you want a level playing field, then you should pay the same percentage of your trip as I do for mine. I mean, it's only fair, right? Are you ready to pay 90% of the cost of your trip? Because I do every day. So, are you going to man up and do it, or are you going to be a leach?
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Originally Posted by jsvh
I am mostly calling BS. I don't think you really know how much your car commute costs you because I think hardly anyone knows how much their car commute really costs them because the costs are so well hidden and subsidized.
I don't think you know nearly as much as you think you do.
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Sounds fine to me. It is not like gas tax is covering the costs as is
So? It's covering FAR more than any other transportation method.
I don’t even understand what the goal of this exercise is. Why is it hard for you to believe I spend ~9 bucks a day on gas alone with our current prices?
Yep. I really think you pulled $9 out of the sky because I don't think most anyone has a real grasp of the costs of driving due to how subsidized and hidden the costs are. Maybe Sam can help out with clarifying where his $2.60 came from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otakumaster
More driving in raw numbers will increase until viable alternatives are made. I know you are the type to add an extra 1-2 hours to your commute on principle of taking transit over driving but I hope understand most people wouldn’t .
As for your question ; naw I think roads are still important. The solution isn’t all or nothing.
So would you not support shifting some of those finite subsidy dollars away from roads and towards more deserving things such as transit? It is not all or nothing. Do you really think all roads and cars will just disappear if people had to pay tolls on most highways like they do in many other countries? I thought you said drivers prefer their cars even though it costs more. You think they would all sell their cars tomorrow if faced with a toll to pay for that highway they are driving on?
We should spend money subsidizing auto use just like we do transit use. What are you all bickering about?
Why? You don't think drivers prefer it enough to pay the full costs?
Transit is more deserving of the subsidies since it is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable.
If we shifted the subsidies for driving to more deserving ventures we would also see a shift in drivers to better alternatives. It is really win-win unless you feel some weird obligation to artificially inflate the number of drivers clogging up our roads.
To use the automobile, public funded roads are a prerequisite.
Which taxes fund public roads?
Property taxes. Fuel taxes. Business taxes. Excise taxes. Etc., etc., etc.
Who pays?
The taxpayer.
Which funds private enterprise support for the automobile?
(parking, infrastructure, insurance, bureaucracy, etc)
Who pays?
The consumer.
If there was NO public subsidy of roads, would you expect taxes to be lower as well as retail prices?
Yes.
But by how much?
How much subsidy is indeterminate, because there are so many overlapping budgets, taxes, and payers. That confusion hides much. Municipal, county, state, and federal administrations also impose a cost for their magnanimous control over the infrastructure. But none of it is cheap nor truly free.
You pay a high price to enjoy the illusion of freedom to drive. It's hidden in the high property taxes, excise taxes, inflated retail prices, interest, insurance rates, bureaucracy, air pollution, health risks, highway fatalities, public nuisances, noise, and so on.
TANSTAAFL.
(There ain't no such thing as a free lunch)
Why? You don't think drivers prefer it enough to pay the full costs?
Transit is more deserving of the subsidies since it is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable.
If we shifted the subsidies for driving to more deserving ventures we would also see a shift in drivers to better alternatives. It is really win-win unless you feel some weird obligation to artificially inflate the number of drivers clogging up our roads.
Why is transit more deserving? It certainly serves far less people, so this statement really is nonsensical. Your last statement is simply your point of view.
I can buy a pack of hot dogs at the store for a couple of bucks. I guarantee you that hot dog they buy in bulk and serve is nowhere near $2, even with costs of operations included. Do you think a small bucket of popcorn at the movies actually cost $6?
Yeah...to your pocket. But you don't know what the actual trip costs, because the costs are so highly subsidized and hidden.
A five-mile trip for me is worth about $2.60, including all gas, taxes, maintenance, parking, services, etc.
Do you think that the cost of the trip is the only factor? There is SO much more to it.
And you are so disconnected from the subsidized costs of transit, bike lanes, sidewalks, and everything else, you have no clue what any of those costs.
Just as hidden for transit. Hell...your fare doesn't even go towards capital costs at all. All of the capital projects are paid for by others!
Yep...complete disconnect from reality. Every post since the first one I noticed (streets will have to be closed to let the dangerous human driver pass) has gone further and further into bizarro world.
Money is but a fraction of the decision process. It would have to be cheap, get me directly from point A to point B without lots of walking, be frequent, be fast, be comfortable, and all sorts of other things. The dollar amount alone doesn't matter as much as those others. You know, just like I'll fly Delta before I fly Spirit, even though they might both get me to the same place in the same amount of time, but Spirit does it much cheaper.
But, you don't feel like a leach, because you believe you deserve the subsidies. Question...are you what is considered "millennial"?
So, even though your ride is being more subsidized than drivers' trips, the drivers are the leaches?
You think people are really stupid and that you are a genius, don't you?
With my 90%? It was directly from the GDOT's Budget Proposal. It wasn't my number, it was the GDOT's. I've posted it numerous times. So, I guess you're calling the GDOT liars or something.
Based on my 52¢ a mile above (which is actually using a low number of miles), my round trip is about $12.48. But, I make that trip in about 25 minutes each way. The fastest MARTA trip is about 105 minutes, more than four times as long. I don't know about you, but I will pay an extra $8 to save almost there hours of my day.
If you want a level playing field, then you should pay the same percentage of your trip as I do for mine. I mean, it's only fair, right? Are you ready to pay 90% of the cost of your trip? Because I do every day. So, are you going to man up and do it, or are you going to be a leach?
I don't think you know nearly as much as you think you do.
So? It's covering FAR more than any other transportation method.
He won’t respond to you. He knows he knows his ideas are looney.
Why is transit more deserving? It certainly serves far less people, so this statement really is nonsensical. Your last statement is simply your point of view.
Since it is more efficient, cheaper, accessible, better for business, safer, greener, and more equitable.
He won’t respond to you. He knows he knows his ideas are looney.
I have have already been around the bush with Sam's page long line-by-line arguments enough. When we get down to it we actually agree on major points. He just likes to argue to argue with me. I have basically responded to all these sort of things with him in the past. No point in doing it again, but if there is something you think I have not answered, feel free to specify.
Ultimately I am trying to get to the question of why some in this thread think roads are deserving of subsidies that could otherwise be directed to things such as sidewalks, parks, police, and transit.
The only thing people seem to come up with is "I like roads and a lot of people use them". Which is not a valid reason to subsidize something. A lot of people like smoking too, which good for them, they should have that choice as long as they don't do it in a way that harms others but that doesn't mean we should subsidize it. In fact, we should probably tax it to discourage it and fund other more deserving things.
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