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Old 04-02-2008, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Cambridge, Isanti County, MN
3,220 posts, read 4,823,804 times
Reputation: 4336

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Atlanta sold its soul for sprawl. It was once a beautiful, charming city, and had a personality all its own. Now, as people have been saying, it is well on its way to being the Los Angeles of the eastern U.S.

Pundits love to rag on Michigan's government for their lack of foresight in correlation to the job industry here, and that has merit. But what about the state of Georgia and their failure to address the public transportation issue in Atlanta? The day is coming (and soon) where this will be seen as one of the great gaffes in history. What about the water problems? Illegals draining the states resources? Crime spreading into the suburbs at an unprecedented rate? Only one, incredibly congested airport for a metro area with nearly 6 million residents? What is the government of Georgia doing about it? Nothing that I could see. That's why I got OUT!

I can identify with the OP. I moved to Boston for a while, and loved it there. I wanted to buy a home, however, and just didn't want to pay $300,000 for a 2 bedroom hut, so I went back to Georgia with hopes of buying out in the rural foothills north of Atlanta. What I found was that there was no more "rural", and that the homes, while not as pricey as those in Boston, had become MUCH more expensive. Houses that were going for $130,000 5-10 years ago were now $220,000.

Atlanta is a hot spot now, no doubt. Come back to this forum in 3-5 years, though, and you'll see plenty of people talking the way they do in the L.A. and Miami forums. It is a city without a plan for the future in so many ways. It will all come home to roost, and one day the trend will reverse itself.

150,000 people a year piling on? That is INSANE!!! No thanks!
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:37 AM
 
4,996 posts, read 8,791,214 times
Reputation: 2116
Skyscraper Enthusiasts,

Where do I start punching holes in all of your statements. First, I gave you too much credit because I actually thought you knew DC. Spring Valley, The Palisides and Chevy Chase are affluent neighborhoods in the city.

The Palisades, Washington, D.C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Spring Valley, Washington, D.C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Chevy Chase, Washington, D.C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Second, DC has been gentrifying at an enormous pace. The are creating new neighborhoods filled with condos, restaurants and retail.

(broken link)

http://www.nomabid.org/index.cfm?objectid=FC56635B-F1F6-6035-BF98271F20AD9AD4 Click on watch the video at right

Do you honestly believe that Atlanta's economy is better than DC's? What part of recession proof don't you understand. The Federal Government and all of the contractors, think tanks, associations, embassies, and non profits trumps anything that Atlanta can put on the table. Do a search on cities (not metro) with the highest per capita income. I think Atlanta is a great city but it is a typical sunbelt city where the car and sprawl are king and anti transit prevails over things that make a city great like walkability, density and a core CBD.

I agree the freeway system in DC is disjointed because they never went ahead with the plans. Thank God! Instead they diverted the funds to Metro. Can you imagine what DC would be without the Metro? Almost 800,000 people ride the train everyday and another 400,000 ride the bus. I know you don't think like I do, but freeways don't add to the quality of life in a city. People here, rich, poor and in between ride the train to work, downtown and to the burbs because regardless of how many new freeways you have, the roads will always be crowded. They can add ten more lanes to 85 and I bet there will still be traffic delays coming into Atlanta. Plus, DC is also on the cusps of getting light rail lines to complement the Metro.

BTW- Skyscrapers are great. they definitely give a city some character but they do not make a city. The people and the neighborhoods do. Have you been to London or Paris? They are not known for their tall buildings.
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Norman, OK
3,479 posts, read 6,492,562 times
Reputation: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraper Enthusiast View Post
And neither does Georgia. That was a ridiculous attempt of a few General Assembly members. The fact is, this was mostly a man-made drought, created by the over-release of water from Georgia reservoirs, courtesy of the Army Corp of Engineers, to provide lots of water to mussels near Apalachicola Bay. Once water release was limited to reasonable levels, the lakes started refilling. It is true that recent rains have helped, but cutting back water release has helped more than anything. They are now releasing only thirty percent of the water that they were releasing from last summer to January.
You're confusing two things here (as I fear most Georgians too).

First off, there is a drought - i.e., North Georgia has seen far below normal rainfall now for 2-3 years.

But second, and what you hint at, is that the issue with water in North Georgia is a water management and sustainability issue. Unfortunately, you like others would like to blame the Army Corps for this via the "save the mussels" smokescreen thrown up by folks unwilling to focus on metro Atlanta's water problem. The fact is this - yes, releases downstream have been going on from Lake Lanier for years - this is nothing new. Those water releases not only feed the mussels but first pass through major nuclear reactors in SE GA that need the water for coolant in their operations. This water then is recycled, some of which then continues downstream for the endangered species. Now, how different would the story be if, instead of "the government is choosing mussels over people", the story was "the government is using water releases to stop a nuclear meltdown"? It really is all in the context.

But still the issue is not the Army Corps or the mussels or the nuclear reactors. Atlanta is the largest city in this country at the top of a watershed. This means that feeding water to the city is much more difficult than even western cities like Los Angeles and Denver. Water management and water planning has been lacking beyond recognition since the 1980s, and the refusal of the state government to step in and build a sustainable water policy for the rapidly expanding metro Atlanta area is the cause of the current water crisis. Yes, I say "current" because, despite recent rains and whatever might happen in terms of rainfall this year, the lack of a sustainable water policy endangers metro Atlanta and its citizens. Like the mussels, the blame thrown on the drought is but a smokescreen - after all, a drought by definition is temporary, so why try to reclaim rich waters from another state to battle a 2-4 year problem?

Quote:
People make more in DC than in Atlanta? I'll admit, metro DC probably has a higher overall income than metro Atlanta. However, I doubt that with all the blight and poverty of the district of columbia, that it has a higher income. If it does, it can't be by much.
You're right about the city itself - DC has a median income of ~$40000 for a household, while in Atlanta it is ~$53000. However, in the metro area, things are different. Washington DC has the most affluent suburban county in the country (Loudoun County with a median income of $98000).

Quote:
This is a subjective measure. However, I would totally disagree. The freeways are disjointed heading into the city. You pretty much have to take I-495 (the beltway), unless you want to find yourself on a two lane street, on a small potholed freeway (the one the runs near RFK), etc.

Atlanta is geographically larger (developed area). It has large, open freeways. (DC does outside the Beltway). It has tall skyscrapers, something DC lacks. I'll give you that our CBD isn't as dense, but DC was a planned city from the start, so it is no suprise that it has a dense core. The district (the mall and surrounding areas is fantastic) and the metro are fantastic. The commuter rail lines are cool, too.
What does being cosmopolitan have to do with having an 18-lane freeway? I think that the other poster was getting at culture, lifestyle, and atmosphere versus the number of roadways.

Quote:
I'm highly aware of the argument made against freeways, as I once was a city planner. Most of these arguments are bogus, in my opinion, for freeway widening and development is usually a product of a growing population, not the reverse. It is true that they cut off some neighborhoods, but they provide better access and mobility to the overall population. Freeways aren't contributors of sprawl. Sprawl is a product of population growth, which is a product of developers, who will develop even along two lane roads. Why do you think so many places have underdeveloped road infrastructure for the development? It wasn't the freeways. Now, I will agree that freeways can provide greater access to desired areas, as the population increases and people settle in areas farther from the CBD. However, it is not the freeway, *****, that caused sprawl, it was the population growth. If you're arguing that freeways allow people the mobility to get to areas they wouldn't have considered without a quick commute, then perhaps people wouldn't consider the metro as a whole, and you can have zero population growth. Most people aren't going to consider living in the actual city. Some will, but the most entertain the idea of a suburban lifestyle. It's not changing anytime soon.
Here I find your argument slightly flawed. While I agree that population growth spurs more development and more sprawl and more road infrastructure, I think we have to go back and ask "why did people move out of the inner city in the first place?" By your argument, you would claim that populations simply grew in cities and then people said "Fine, it's time to live elsewhere" and then moved out and then demanded roads to bring them into the city. This might be true to a point, but I do not see it as the driver. There is much evidence that the development of the Federal Interstate System spawned a HUGE migration out of cities and into the suburbs. So, for this "chicken and egg" dilemma, I would argue that major interstates came first, then migration to the suburbs. Now we are in a feedback loop indeed.
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Old 04-02-2008, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Louisiana and Pennsylvania
2,808 posts, read 5,478,602 times
Reputation: 2780
Scraper Enthusiast wrote:

People make more in DC than in Atlanta? I'll admit, metro DC probably has a higher overall income than metro Atlanta. However, I doubt that with all the blight and poverty of the district of columbia, that it has a higher income. If it does, it can't be by much.

What makes you think the job situation is better? 151,000 made their way to metro Atlanta last year, compared to only about 60,000 for metro DC.

Metro Atlanta has a very diverse economy. It's been able to ride recessions much better than many other cities.

I respectfully disagree with some points.

Ture..One may make six figures working for a private company, then the next day be jobless. Another person may not make even 3/4 of that working for the feds, but at least they have a stable and constant income.

Despite the poverty in DC, the fact remains that the huge presence of the Federal Government ,the numerous contracting and other private companies that feed off of the feds will always be present. Granted, the fed may shut down here and there, but they are not going out of business in DC and the surrounding area.

151,000 jobs compared to "only" 60,000? What types of jobs are we talking? 60,000 well paying ones with excellent benefits and stability compared to 151,000 in ATL, many of which are service related, low-paying and little if any benefits? Additionally, the job base in the DC is always strong, so even the addition of half that figure won't make a substantial difference.

Even in the worst economic times, the DC area will not be impacted as hard in comparison to areas that rely predominately on private companies to turn their economic engines.

Not trying to be a smart a** here, just my .02
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Old 04-02-2008, 09:42 AM
 
1,178 posts, read 3,498,704 times
Reputation: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC's Finest View Post
Skyscraper Enthusiasts,

Where do I start punching holes in all of your statements. First, I gave you too much credit because I actually thought you knew DC. Spring Valley, The Palisides and Chevy Chase are affluent neighborhoods in the city.

The Palisades, Washington, D.C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Spring Valley, Washington, D.C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Chevy Chase, Washington, D.C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Chevy Chase is its own municipality. It's a suburb.

"The Town of Chevy Chase, incorporated in 1918, is a self-governing municipality located in Montgomery County, Maryland. The incorporated boundaries of the Town extend to East-West Highway on the north, Connecticut Avenue on the east, Bradley Lane on the south and one block east of Wisconsin Avenue on the west." Town of Chevy Chase

The others I did not recognize, so I assumed, like Chevy Chase, that they were suburbs. I'm not aware of all the little neighborhoods within the district (I'm aware of Georgetown and the Capital district, along with all the slums to the north, east, and northeast, but that's about it).

If you know the area so well, why did you include a suburb as part of the city? Don't you know the place well enough to know a suburb is not part of the city proper?

I'm well aware of many DC suburbs, such as Fairfax, Alexandria, Arlington, Falls Church, Manassas, Lowell, Dale City, Laurel, Wheaton, Rockville, Bethesda, Reston, Gaithersburg, etc.

Quote:
Second, DC has been gentrifying at an enormous pace. The are creating new neighborhoods filled with condos, restaurants and retail.
www.halfstreet.com | Half Street | Half Street Condominiums | Ballpark District

http://www.nomabid.org/index.cfm?objectid=FC56635B-F1F6-6035-BF98271F20AD9AD4 Click on watch the video at right[/quote]

I never claimed that it wasn't gentrifying. I'm well aware of this, as I've read the reports. Atlanta has also had a bit of gentrification.

Quote:
Do you honestly believe that Atlanta's economy is better than DC's? What part of recession proof don't you understand. The Federal Government and all of the contractors, think tanks, associations, embassies, and non profits trumps anything that Atlanta can put on the table. Do a search on cities (not metro) with the highest per capita income. I think Atlanta is a great city but it is a typical sunbelt city where the car and sprawl are king and anti transit prevails over things that make a city great like walkability, density and a core CBD.
As far as economy, I'll agree with you that the district is more recession-proof than the city proper of Atlanta. However, regions as a whole, it is a toss-up. Atlanta has a more diverse economy than DC, which has a large percentage invested in government.

I'm not denying that Atlanta is more car-oriented. That's obvious. Metro Washington is also very car-oriented, outside of the capital beltway. It "sprawls", too. Areas outside the beltway are probably a little more dense than what you'll find in metro Atlanta, but it's not by much.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the district is more "walkable" than what you'll find in most areas of Atlanta. The suburbs of Washington, however, aren't very much more walkable than suburbs of Atlanta.

Quote:
I agree the freeway system in DC is disjointed because they never went ahead with the plans. Thank God! Instead they diverted the funds to Metro. Can you imagine what DC would be without the Metro? Almost 800,000 people ride the train everyday and another 400,000 ride the bus. I know you don't think like I do, but freeways don't add to the quality of life in a city. People here, rich, poor and in between ride the train to work, downtown and to the burbs because regardless of how many new freeways you have, the roads will always be crowded. They can add ten more lanes to 85 and I bet there will still be traffic delays coming into Atlanta. Plus, DC is also on the cusps of getting light rail lines to complement the Metro.
I complimented the DC region on their quality transportation system. I have ridden both the metro and the commuter rail lines, and they are much more superior to anything that Atlanta has. I'm not going to argue over this. It's pretty apparent. The metro has many more lines than Marta has, and it serves a much larger percentage of the metro area than Marta does for Atlanta. Both systems started within a few years of each other, but Marta didn't expand very much, relative to the Washington Metro.

I'm pretty sure that many of the interstates throughout Atlanta are widened as much as they can be. I-75 is at sixteen lanes in parts of Cobb County, and parts of I-85 through Gwinnett are at twelve to fourteen lanes. I believe that commuter rail lines would go a long way.

Quote:
BTW- Skyscrapers are great. they definitely give a city some character but they do not make a city. The people and the neighborhoods do. Have you been to London or Paris? They are not known for their tall buildings.
I didn't claim that they made a city. I implied that it provided a strong element that you're a major city/player, etc.
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Old 04-02-2008, 09:51 AM
 
4,996 posts, read 8,791,214 times
Reputation: 2116
Something happened with the links I provided! But anyway, take my word. There is a Chevy Chase DC and a Chevy Chase, Maryland. They are separated by Western Avenue and Chevy Chase Circle. You can't tell me anything about DC. You will look foolish! Another thing! Atlanta's burbrs are not like our burbs. Our burbs are quite walkable. We have major CBD like Rosslyn, Bethesda, Silver Spring, Pentagon City, Crystal City and the Ballston Corridor. Tysons Corner is not walkable (yet) but it has more office space than downtown Atlanta. Have you ever been to Old Town Alexandria? Very walkable, plus all of these areas are served by Metro.




Map of Washington, D.C., with Chevy Chase highlighted in red

Last edited by DC's Finest; 04-02-2008 at 10:13 AM..
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:06 AM
 
1,178 posts, read 3,498,704 times
Reputation: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by wxjay View Post
You're confusing two things here (as I fear most Georgians too).

First off, there is a drought - i.e., North Georgia has seen far below normal rainfall now for 2-3 years.
I realize that there is a drought. However, this drought is not as severe as some we've seen in the past. The drought of 1986 was far more severe, as we went extended periods of time without any measurable rainfall. During the summer of 1986, Lake Alatoona went dry (it looked like a creek), and this was at a time when the Army Corp of Engineers was letting less water out of north Georgia reservoirs, and when metro Atlanta had a metro population of about 2.5 million (compared to today's 5.3 million). I'll admit that today's drought is one of the worst, but it isn't the most severe.

Quote:
But second, and what you hint at, is that the issue with water in North Georgia is a water management and sustainability issue. Unfortunately, you like others would like to blame the Army Corps for this via the "save the mussels" smokescreen thrown up by folks unwilling to focus on metro Atlanta's water problem. The fact is this - yes, releases downstream have been going on from Lake Lanier for years - this is nothing new. Those water releases not only feed the mussels but first pass through major nuclear reactors in SE GA that need the water for coolant in their operations. This water then is recycled, some of which then continues downstream for the endangered species. Now, how different would the story be if, instead of "the government is choosing mussels over people", the story was "the government is using water releases to stop a nuclear meltdown"? It really is all in the context.
I'm fully aware of the nuclear reactors in southwest Georgia, not southeast Georgia. These lie on the border of Georgia and Alabama, and they supply power for southwest Georgia and southeast Alabama. Even still, the last half of 2007 had the corp releasing a near maximum amount of water out of the reservoirs. When the slowed the flow to a minimum amount, what is now being released, the lake levels began to rise.

It is obvious that with Atlanta's growing population that more reservoirs are needed and, at the present, a new reservoir is being filled in Canton (Cherokee County). However, it will not be filled for another couple years. Still, the drought has been made much more severe for the simple fact that the Army corp of Engineers was releasing too much water. This has been stated multiple times. I don't doubt that they'll have to start releasing more water during the warm weather months, given that more power will need to be generated for greater power usage in order to keep cool. Even with this, I doubt that the levels released last summer will be necessary. Hopefully, we will have greater rainfall, so the impact of greater water release will be lessened.

Quote:
But still the issue is not the Army Corps or the mussels or the nuclear reactors. Atlanta is the largest city in this country at the top of a watershed. This means that feeding water to the city is much more difficult than even western cities like Los Angeles and Denver. Water management and water planning has been lacking beyond recognition since the 1980s, and the refusal of the state government to step in and build a sustainable water policy for the rapidly expanding metro Atlanta area is the cause of the current water crisis. Yes, I say "current" because, despite recent rains and whatever might happen in terms of rainfall this year, the lack of a sustainable water policy endangers metro Atlanta and its citizens. Like the mussels, the blame thrown on the drought is but a smokescreen - after all, a drought by definition is temporary, so why try to reclaim rich waters from another state to battle a 2-4 year problem?
I've claimed that more reservoirs are needed, but that the corp made things worse than they had to be, which is a fact. Hopefully, with a more conservative release of water, coupled with more rainfall, we won't be in the situation this summer and fall.

Quote:
You're right about the city itself - DC has a median income of ~$40000 for a household, while in Atlanta it is ~$53000. However, in the metro area, things are different. Washington DC has the most affluent suburban county in the country (Loudoun County with a median income of $98000).
And cost of living is much, much higher. Income to cost of living comes out in Atlanta's favor, in my opinion.

Quote:
What does being cosmopolitan have to do with having an 18-lane freeway? I think that the other poster was getting at culture, lifestyle, and atmosphere versus the number of roadways.
It is only one measure of cosmopolitan, much like museums, etc. (cultural elements) are another measure of cosmopolitan. They are entirely subjective to the person's tastes.

Quote:
Here I find your argument slightly flawed. While I agree that population growth spurs more development and more sprawl and more road infrastructure, I think we have to go back and ask "why did people move out of the inner city in the first place?" By your argument, you would claim that populations simply grew in cities and then people said "Fine, it's time to live elsewhere" and then moved out and then demanded roads to bring them into the city. This might be true to a point, but I do not see it as the driver. There is much evidence that the development of the Federal Interstate System spawned a HUGE migration out of cities and into the suburbs. So, for this "chicken and egg" dilemma, I would argue that major interstates came first, then migration to the suburbs. Now we are in a feedback loop indeed.
With immigration as it is, coupled with natural population increase and domestic migration, you have to have a place for people to live. Everyone cannot fit, nor cram into the city limits. Thus, you have to expand outward. Unless you want to have huge slums, as is found in third world countries, you have to have people move farther from the city core. This takes more land. Americans' preference is single family homes. You need land, therefore you have to build where there is land. People follow where the environment is favorable, costs are low, and the job market is good. Therefore, you have to make a place for these people. Atlanta has been favored, as have many cities, so subdivisions have popped up everywhere, which have momentarily over-extended many two-lane roads which haven't kept up with population. With the people come the businesses (shopping centers: your classic "sprawl development). This is unavoidable, unless you want to try to convince the majority of people to live on tiny lots in the city, or unless you want to stop people from moving to metro Atlanta. The latter, courtesy of limiting developers, is more likely than convincing most people to purchase homes on tiny lots in the city proper. Pre-automobile cities are the product of the era prior to World War II when everything was built side-by-side, and close-in, before the Eisenhower Interstate System and the GI Bill loans.
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:13 AM
 
1,178 posts, read 3,498,704 times
Reputation: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil3 View Post
Scraper Enthusiast wrote:

People make more in DC than in Atlanta? I'll admit, metro DC probably has a higher overall income than metro Atlanta. However, I doubt that with all the blight and poverty of the district of columbia, that it has a higher income. If it does, it can't be by much.

What makes you think the job situation is better? 151,000 made their way to metro Atlanta last year, compared to only about 60,000 for metro DC.

Metro Atlanta has a very diverse economy. It's been able to ride recessions much better than many other cities.

I respectfully disagree with some points.

Ture..One may make six figures working for a private company, then the next day be jobless. Another person may not make even 3/4 of that working for the feds, but at least they have a stable and constant income.

Despite the poverty in DC, the fact remains that the huge presence of the Federal Government ,the numerous contracting and other private companies that feed off of the feds will always be present. Granted, the fed may shut down here and there, but they are not going out of business in DC and the surrounding area.

151,000 jobs compared to "only" 60,000? What types of jobs are we talking? 60,000 well paying ones with excellent benefits and stability compared to 151,000 in ATL, many of which are service related, low-paying and little if any benefits? Additionally, the job base in the DC is always strong, so even the addition of half that figure won't make a substantial difference.

Even in the worst economic times, the DC area will not be impacted as hard in comparison to areas that rely predominately on private companies to turn their economic engines.

Not trying to be a smart a** here, just my .02
151,000 people, not jobs. Obviously, they have to be able to support themselves, so there must be jobs that have been created.
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Old 04-02-2008, 10:14 AM
 
1,178 posts, read 3,498,704 times
Reputation: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC's Finest View Post
Something happened with the links I provided! But anyway, take my word. There is a Chevy Chase DC and a Chevy Chase, Maryland. They are separated by Western Avenue and Chevy Chase Circle. You can't tell me anything about DC. You will look foolish! Another thing! Atlanta's burbrs are not like our burbs. Our burbs are quite walkable. We have major CBD like Rosslyn, Bethesda, Silver Spring, Pentagon City, Crystal City and the Ballston Corridor. Tysons Corner is not walkable (yet) but it has more office space than downtown Atlanta. Have you ever been to Old Town Alexandria? Very walkable, plus all of these areas are served by Metro.




Map of Washington, D.C., with Chevy Chase highlighted in red
I'm aware that Alexandria and Arlington are walkable, as they were once part of the district.

I'm also aware that some of your suburbs are walkable. Most aren't. Manassas, Dale City, Springfield, etc. aren't any more walkable than most Atlanta suburbs.
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:13 PM
 
3 posts, read 5,396 times
Reputation: 10
We gave it four years, and every year the congestion has gotten worse. I can't see commuting and working the rest of my life. There's also a serious case of Keeping up with the Jones'. It is an East Coast LA, nearly replicating the "Weeds" surburbia.
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