Norwood Emerges with Buckhead-Cobb Subway Concept (Atlanta, Doraville: crime rates, home, schools)

[bryantm3]

the only problem is that a lot of those existing rail lines are too congested to add any kind of commuter rail, especially those in NW atlanta. i can't find the map but CSX released something a while back that essentially showed those lines were maxed out as it is.

any kind of expansion along those corridors is going to require the state of georgia investing in purchasing additional ROW and building more tracks. and that's the thing that's been stopping commuter rail to chattanooga and points farther. so, considering GA eventually does this, do we really want to dedicate that new rail space to local transportation instead of commuter rail?

i really liked bu2's idea earlier of running this buckhead tunnel to cobb idea in together with the clifton corridor as a single HRT line. or maybe an LRT line with separated right of way (no running in traffic). anybody have any interest in those two being consolidated as a single project?

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i have to say i also really like the idea of running an LRT line in the same corridor that the marietta interurban trolley went (fourthwarden's "vinings" option), because it goes through all the historic downtown areas through cobb (vinings, smyrna, marietta, kennesaw, even acworth and cartersville are on this line) but then again you need separated ROW because the line is maxed out. as kind of a 'beltline' for cobb and a resurrection of the old trolley line, it seems like a much nicer option than ugly ass cobb parkway. it would be a line that people would actually enjoy riding and might attract people who hate riding the subway.


edit: cqholt, this is the line you proposed with LRT instead of using the rail line so i think we're thinking along the same lines. then again LRT would require building additional ROW, too, so i guess there's not really an easy solution here.

[primaltech]

It should also be pointed out that cqholt's plan perfectly compliments the official MARTA City of Atlanta funded expansion plan:



https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...244884176&z=15

-This line would serve as the transit for the NW Beltline, which is the only section missing from the map there
-This line would serve as the transit for the Clifton Corridor which is only partially funded, saving a lot of costs there
-The Northside Dr BRT would connect nicely with the Berkely Park/Northside Dr station
-The Moores Mill frequent bus corridor would connect nicely with the Moores Mill station
-The Peachtree Rd ART would connect nicely with the Brookwood/Peachtree Park station
-The NE Beltline LRT could use Armour and save some cost and distance, and be a station designed with LRT in mind

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Nice. I think that train right there would make a beautiful mass transit solution for Cobb County. 60hz AC overhead power like Denver, except a lot more sharing ROW with freight than them, which shouldn't be a problem with more tracks added, and whatever other GPS technologies are out there now, with trains.

No advanced technology is necessary, the existing signaling system plus the now-required positive train control overlay is sufficient. The garbage PTC system that CSX and the other Class-1s chose does use GPS, but has little to do with increasing capacity. The only issue with sharing the RoW is one of crash standards, but we've been building compliant trains for decades, and the FRA has newer standards that allow lighter off the shelf European designs to operate with freight trains.

Originally Posted by bryantm3

the only problem is that a lot of those existing rail lines are too congested to add any kind of commuter rail, especially those in NW atlanta. i can't find the map but CSX released something a while back that essentially showed those lines were maxed out as it is.

The only report from the past few years was one by CSX which showed that particular corridor as having excess capacity. That is even more the case now that CSX has scaled back its network, particularly through Georgia. I don't know all the trains on the Cobb line, but a good example is the Emory-Tucker-Athens line. It used to host probably 12+ through train pairs per day, plus all the locals and random coal/aggregate/ethanol/etc. trains. Now, it has 4 train pairs per day, plus the locals and random trains. The same sort of reduction has happened in Cobb. Now the NS line through Gwinnett and the one to Austell? Different story, but capacity improvements to allow passenger rail aren't out of reach by any stretch.

any kind of expansion along those corridors is going to require the state of georgia investing in purchasing additional ROW and building more tracks. and that's the thing that's been stopping commuter rail to chattanooga and points farther. so, considering GA eventually does this, do we really want to dedicate that new rail space to local transportation instead of commuter rail?

The RoW is plenty wide enough to add new tracks to enhance capacity without having to dedicate an entirely separate set of tracks.

[jsvh]

We can debate the details of the route, but the bigger question that needs to be answered first is:

Where does the money come from?

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by jsvh

We can debate the details of the route, but the bigger question that needs to be answered first is:

Where does the money come from?

I think Cobb County should implement a 1% sales tax (bringing us to a reasonable 7%), to join MARTA and pay for MARTA commuter rail (and enhanced MARTA bus service) in Cobb, as well as whatever track in Atlanta necessary to connect the line over to the Red/Gold line, and any station improvements needed to accommodate it at whatever station it connects with. Up to and including the construction of an Armour MARTA infill station.

If the line were to be extended to Woodstock, Holly Springs, and Canton, then Cherokee County would need to raise their own county sales tax and pay for that segment. They have this right, as per the ATL transit bill.

Cherokee can't join MARTA and can't legally get MARTA heavy rail, but they should be able to contract with.

And as far as other stations on the line inside Atlanta (such as Moores Mill, Northside Dr, etc), I see two possible ways of funding. One would be privately funded by developers/businesses in the area of the station, and the other would be using excess funds/savings from the More MARTA half penny expansion tax.

I mean, they're going to build bus transit centers at Moores Mill, and one at Northside Dr near I-75 anyway, so might as well make those bus and train stations, it wouldn't cost that much extra. In my opinion Cobb taxes should fund the line itself.

DeKalb County .5% MARTA expansion tax would fund the segment of the line and stations in their county, outside of CoA. So that would be the N Druid Hills/Northlake/Tucker stations, on cqholt's proposal.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by jsvh

We can debate the details of the route, but the bigger question that needs to be answered first is:

Where does the money come from?

The great thing about community activism is although it would be fantastic for us to come up with funding sources, we are not elected officials nor the ones responsible for making it happen. That said, we can provide a vision (a route or a few alternatives) and get community buy-in. IMO, community buy-in will require more than Piedmont hospital as a destination.

While metro Atlanta connectivity is good, we can bolster support with a few infill stations that will have a surrounding community and act as destinations others would want to visit.

[primaltech]

The thing about commuter rail is it's so cheap, and the stations are extremely simple and cheap. I mean, it's just basically a concrete platform for people to board the train.

That's why I think, Cobb should fund the line and the track since it would connect our county with the main heavy rail line that connects the main parts of the city and the airport, and any additional stations on the line in Atlanta could easily be funded privately or with the More MARTA sales tax, or by whatever other means. Because they would not cost much at all.

[primaltech]

This spot for example:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8119.../data=!3m1!1e3

If there were 2 tracks there instead of 1, and commuter rail trains going by on the way in and out of Armour, all of that funded by taxes in Cobb and Cherokee, then I would think it would be really easy for local businesses (such as Piedmont Hospital, right there), and developers who want to replace old stuff and build better new stuff, to fund a very simple platform station, right there on that straight segment, east of the road, south of Fresh Market.

Plus like a short concrete ramp up to the sidewalk. It would not be expensive, and the local business community would benefit a ton from having the station. It just seems like they could find a way to fund it.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

This spot for example:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8119.../data=!3m1!1e3

If there were 2 tracks there instead of 1, and commuter rail trains going by on the way in and out of Armour, all of that funded by taxes in Cobb and Cherokee, then I would think it would be really easy for local businesses (such as Piedmont Hospital, right there), and developers who want to replace old stuff and build better new stuff, to fund a very simple platform station, right there on that straight segment, east of the road, south of Fresh Market.

Plus like a short concrete ramp up to the sidewalk. It would not be expensive, and the local business community would benefit a ton from having the station. It just seems like they could find a way to fund it.

Leveraging greenfields or brownfield TOD redevelopment will help fund the system, similar to what BrightLine is doing in Florida.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

I disagree. More than half the area is an underdeveloped industrial corridor. The homes nearby are some of the cheaper condos in the northern part of the city and from a buckhead perspective, cheaper homes and not in the best school district. The area had more room for development than the Tilford TOD you suggest (which is also stymied by Inman hard). It also encourages walkability adjacent existing walkable neighborhoods, supporting intown density/growth. Atlanta needs more interconnected neighborhoods, not more newly created and isolated neighborhoods. Transit accessible or not, more of our neighborhoods need to be cohesive.

That corridor is one of the prime ones in the city for redevelopment. There is a lot of underutilized industrial property. Its already changing, albeit slowly. With the closing of the rail yard, it will pick up.

What is also different about this area than the east side is that there is actually space to improve transit and roads to handle the increased population.