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Old 11-21-2018, 09:33 AM
bu2
 
21,538 posts, read 12,080,140 times
Reputation: 10519

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
We can debate the details of the route, but the bigger question that needs to be answered first is:

Where does the money come from?
If they can spend billions on the Clifton Corridor, they can find it to build in Buckhead. You would get a 40-50% federal match (assuming it meets qualifications), some state money and MARTA money. If you connect to Cobb County (who will eventually join or partner with MARTA), you have a new revenue stream. With Cobb involved, you get more incentive for the state to be involved.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:00 AM
bu2
 
21,538 posts, read 12,080,140 times
Reputation: 10519
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden View Post
By installing a higher-capacity option. Road space can not be limited to cars if you want to enable proper mobility within a growing and desifying city like Atlanta. How we make use of the limited surface space is important to prioritize, and cars are a terrible use of that space.

If you strangle the vehicle traffic, you simply drive people and businesses further from town over the long run.

There is no duplication in that corridor. The ONE station between Arts Center and Buckhead is Lindbergh, and it is over a mile away from the Peachtree corridor.

With railroads and freeways, there's not a lot in that area

HRT, as I already pointed out, does not make sense. To service for Buckhead that does nothing for the needs of the Peachtree corridor would actually cost more money.

A transfer can be managed if the over all service improves to the point of far more people actually being able to make use of the system.

Your corridor doesn't have people. And cutting out traffic lanes reduces "service" for 90+% of the people who work in the area.


I mean, if you want to do that, and fully ignore all the additional costs of now building out two new extensive heavy rail lines, sure, we can do whatever we want I guess. Why not just have heavy rail everywhere ever always?

And, no, you can't just substitute heavy rail into a chunk of the BeltLine and pretend as if that's a workable solution to the loop, especially after worrying so much about transfers above.
The green line could be a loop connecting to the Clifton corridor as someone else suggested. There doesn't appear to be any "workable" solution in present plans as the freight rail lines are too heavily used.
And you seem to want light rail everywhere. Its not cheap-look at the costs on the Clifton corridor. Several places are running into HRT level costs with their light rail plans. As for transfers, its mentally and psychologically easier for passengers to switch rail lines than to switch modes. Most people are not transit fanatics. They see transit as a tool to get where they want at an acceptable price and in an acceptable length of time.



I doubt that, since it didn't have much more tunneling than the I-75 route, but does have more aerial sections. Honestly, the Buckhead route does not justify its costs for the paltry service improvement it offers, at the cost of service to the Howell Mill and other areas, mind you. Especially not if you are right, and the tunneling costs are underplayed. At that point, you could just fund the entire light rail line along Peachtree Rd. with the savings.

Worse service. Still extremely expensive. Detrimental to 90% of the population.

The Buckhead tunnel is really not a good option, and the convenience of those who want to go directly to Buckhead village, since it wouldn't even go to the other stations without a transfer in Lindbergh, is not at all worth the opportunity costs.
You don't seem to understand the concept. This would be a 3rd north-south line (or alternatively connecting to the Clifton Corridor). Atlanta and you are still stuck in a downtown centric mindset from 50 years ago that is an anchor on our road network. Atlanta is not Manhattan or San Francisco. Downtown is losing more and more of the non-student, non-government trips. We need to better service the other employment nodes. Transit needs to get people where they want to go, not where transit planners think they should go. Not everyone is going to be a young single or DINKs or high upper middle class who will live in the city with expensive rents, often substandard schools and high crime rates.

The tunnel would be expensive, but not that much more than the Clifton Corridor (unless utility lines make tunneling prohibitive). Atlanta has always done what is convenient. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet, spend more and do what is useful, not convenient. It may be that this corridor may be too expensive and generate too little ridership. But it is something that needs study as it runs through one of the densest employment and population, high traffic and poorly served by transit corridors in the city. Below is the aerial image.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ga...!4d-84.3778592
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:17 AM
bu2
 
21,538 posts, read 12,080,140 times
Reputation: 10519
To some extent, extending the Green line is an effort to find a purpose for it. There's some argument for just ending it. Right now it only uses 3 cars and only serves one station other than the Blue line.

Ideally, I would like it to be something of a U shape, from Doraville to the Clifton Corridor (bringing in the heavy NE commuter flow to that corridor), down to Avondale, then over to Bankhead and up to Cumberland Mall where it would end.

A Buckhead subway running in the same ROW along I-75 with the Green line would extend further into Cobb County, just as the Gold line (assuming Gwinnett's proposal passes) will extend further into Gwinnett County than this proposed Green line extension.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:25 AM
bu2
 
21,538 posts, read 12,080,140 times
Reputation: 10519
Quote:
Originally Posted by cqholt View Post
Leveraging greenfields or brownfield TOD redevelopment will help fund the system, similar to what BrightLine is doing in Florida.
In line with that, a Green line extension could use a TOD and land donations from the developers of Tilford yard.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,728 posts, read 22,600,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
To some extent, extending the Green line is an effort to find a purpose for it. There's some argument for just ending it. Right now it only uses 3 cars and only serves one station other than the Blue line.

Ideally, I would like it to be something of a U shape, from Doraville to the Clifton Corridor (bringing in the heavy NE commuter flow to that corridor), down to Avondale, then over to Bankhead and up to Cumberland Mall where it would end.

A Buckhead subway running in the same ROW along I-75 with the Green line would extend further into Cobb County, just as the Gold line (assuming Gwinnett's proposal passes) will extend further into Gwinnett County than this proposed Green line extension.
Green Line trains use 2 rail car trains, as MARTA's rolling stock is in permanent married pairs.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:32 AM
 
640 posts, read 439,279 times
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I very much appreciate everyone's hard work so far. Everyone is free to make up any plans they want but i do feel it's important for the plans to at least be reasonable. While transit fans have certain goals and ideologues if they are going to throw out serious plans for cobb to join marta, some things need to be considered.

Cobb will not pay for the rail, improvements, or stations in Atlanta/fulton to fund their primary connection.

Cobbs main and primary rail connection will not be a commuter rail down through bankhead or that area.

The outdated idea that people need to be funneled into downtown will not fly.

Cobbinites want access to buckhead, midtown, and perimeter with no or limited transfers. Downtown is a secondary concern.

Cobbinites don't care about anything other than traffic and commute times. Don't even try to sell them on increasing density, getting rid of cars, urban development/renewal, et cetera. All they want is to get to work and home to see the family. Maybe some sporting events.

We already have sufficient bus transit so 'enhanced marta buses' are of limited interest. See item above.

For cobb to join marta they will have to be on the same level as other areas. They will have as much say as other areas of similar status.

You guys and gals can post whatever plans you want but the facts on the ground are what they are.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
8,060 posts, read 5,692,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTCM View Post
I very much appreciate everyone's hard work so far. Everyone is free to make up any plans they want but i do feel it's important for the plans to at least be reasonable. While transit fans have certain goals and ideologues if they are going to throw out serious plans for cobb to join marta, some things need to be considered.

Cobb will not pay for the rail, improvements, or stations in Atlanta/fulton to fund their primary connection.

Cobbs main and primary rail connection will not be a commuter rail down through bankhead or that area.

The outdated idea that people need to be funneled into downtown will not fly.

Cobbinites want access to buckhead, midtown, and perimeter with no or limited transfers. Downtown is a secondary concern.

Cobbinites don't care about anything other than traffic and commute times. Don't even try to sell them on increasing density, getting rid of cars, urban development/renewal, et cetera. All they want is to get to work and home to see the family. Maybe some sporting events.

We already have sufficient bus transit so 'enhanced marta buses' are of limited interest. See item above.

For cobb to join marta they will have to be on the same level as other areas. They will have as much say as other areas of similar status.

You guys and gals can post whatever plans you want but the facts on the ground are what they are.
You don't speak for all of us in Cobb. This is a blue county now, and the Fox News type people who are irrationally scared of black people and all that, are more in the minority, than the majority of our citizenry.

I am 100% willing for my Cobb sales taxes to fund any transit that helps Cobb, which requires said transit to leave the boundaries of Cobb. Where it's all located is not the point, it's whether it's benefiting Cobb. Refusal to fund a connection to anywhere outside of the county, is ridiculous and misses the entire point.

That doesn't mean we need to fund any other stations in Atlanta necessarily, but definitely would need to fund the terminal connection to the MARTA line, as that's the whole entire point of the commuter rail line.

Anyway, the area immediately around the Bankhead station is on the way up, especially with that awesome park coming in soon, and all that Texeira development and whatever else around there.

And 2 of the other stations on the west/ Blue/Green line (Vine City and the stadium one) would be useful to Cobb with all of the Falcons/United fans we have here. As well as Five Points (with all the new development coming in there soon), and stations to the east on that line.

The Green Line needs to be extended, regardless of Cobb an regardless of connections to CRT. Bankhead station should be renamed, and spiffied up, and improved connections to the future park and developments. And have its platform extended to support the full length trains. Then they need to put at least one more station, if not multiple, with TOD projects at those stations. To make that line have a point.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
23,728 posts, read 22,600,193 times
Reputation: 5684
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTCM View Post
I very much appreciate everyone's hard work so far. Everyone is free to make up any plans they want but i do feel it's important for the plans to at least be reasonable. While transit fans have certain goals and ideologues if they are going to throw out serious plans for cobb to join marta, some things need to be considered.

Cobb will not pay for the rail, improvements, or stations in Atlanta/fulton to fund their primary connection.

Cobbs main and primary rail connection will not be a commuter rail down through bankhead or that area.

The outdated idea that people need to be funneled into downtown will not fly.

Cobbinites want access to buckhead, midtown, and perimeter with no or limited transfers. Downtown is a secondary concern.

Cobbinites don't care about anything other than traffic and commute times. Don't even try to sell them on increasing density, getting rid of cars, urban development/renewal, et cetera. All they want is to get to work and home to see the family. Maybe some sporting events.

We already have sufficient bus transit so 'enhanced marta buses' are of limited interest. See item above.

For cobb to join marta they will have to be on the same level as other areas. They will have as much say as other areas of similar status.

You guys and gals can post whatever plans you want but the facts on the ground are what they are.
Last one to the party wants to decide what everyone else is going to eat.
Current MARTA board make up:
City of Atlanta: 3
Fulton Co: 3
DeKalb Co: 4
Clayton Co: 2
1 Governor Appointment
Cobb will get the same number of seats as Clayton County.
Cobb's bus service is not sufficient, there is 0 Sunday service. BRT is different than local bus, for it to be useful it will need dedicated lanes.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
8,060 posts, read 5,692,542 times
Reputation: 6412
CobbLinc is adding Sunday bus service soon. I’m not sure the date that starts up, but it’s funded.

Regardless though, we need to just join MARTA like Gwinnett is looking at doing. With the same kind of careful contract negotiation that they did.
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Old 11-22-2018, 09:31 AM
bu2
 
21,538 posts, read 12,080,140 times
Reputation: 10519
People ride MARTA to the airport. It goes through areas similar to Bankhead. I don't think that is a deal stopper on a Cobb rail line. It would have been 50 years ago. However, I agree with the other premise that downtown should not be the primary focus.
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