Norwood Emerges with Buckhead-Cobb Subway Concept (Atlanta, Decatur: cost, vs., buses)

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Last one to the party wants to decide what everyone else is going to eat.
Current MARTA board make up:
City of Atlanta: 3
Fulton Co: 3
DeKalb Co: 4
Clayton Co: 2
1 Governor Appointment
Cobb will get the same number of seats as Clayton County.
Cobb's bus service is not sufficient, there is 0 Sunday service. BRT is different than local bus, for it to be useful it will need dedicated lanes.

Are you speculating or is that from the legislation?

Gwinnett or Cobb should insist on seats based on population. Cobb has a few more people than Dekalb. Gwinnett is rapidly closing on Fulton.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by bu2

People ride MARTA to the airport. It goes through areas similar to Bankhead. I don't think that is a deal stopper on a Cobb rail line. It would have been 50 years ago. However, I agree with the other premise that downtown should not be the primary focus.

It's not that Downtown is the focus at all, it's that the CSX railroad line runs there. And if you're going to transfer from commuter rail to heavy rail, Five Points is the best connecting station since you can go to/come from any direction with the one transfer.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by bu2

Are you speculating or is that from the legislation?

Gwinnett or Cobb should insist on seats based on population. Cobb has a few more people than Dekalb. Gwinnett is rapidly closing on Fulton.

I would imagine that Cobb and Gwinnett would get 3-4 apiece.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by bu2

People ride MARTA to the airport. It goes through areas similar to Bankhead. I don't think that is a deal stopper on a Cobb rail line. It would have been 50 years ago. However, I agree with the other premise that downtown should not be the primary focus.

Those areas are rapidly improving. Oakland City is seeing a huge amount of home renovations. East Point and College Park are improving their cores as well.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

FWIW I think both could work, I’m just trying to think which would be the best and why.

Updated map to include
New lines: Brown: Cobb -> Collier Road -> West Midtown -> Atlantic Station -> Armour -> TBD [Lindbergh|North Springs|Doraville] (amount of stops could be reduced as a more express roue) & Silver Line: Cobb -> East Atlanta via extension to Green line.
Extended Line: Green line: Bankhead -> Knight Park/Howell Station -> Marietta BLVD -> West Midtown -> Atlantic Station -> Armour -> TBD
Stations (small white dots),
General walkability to HRT/commuter stations (larger transparent white dots), included the items below to show how proximity to transit is expanded throughout the city w/the new BRT & LRT routes.
BRT in blue,
LRT in purple (for whatever reason I don't have the crosstown extensions at the moment) (ignore the east end of the Clifton Corridor alignment... I'm not a fan of the terminus both here and at Avondale Estates).

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by primaltech

My only point is just in regard to both a NW heavy rail/light rail line, and also a commuter rail line. I think that's going to be too much to have both, too costly, and just a hard sell in a tax-averse county.

Again, you misunderstood where I said "Both". As I already point out, the comment was in reply to CQ's suggestion of replacing the Clifton Corridor LRT with commuter rail to then tie into an over all NW transit corridor.

I was not talking about the entirety of the NW corridor with that post, JUST the Clifton Corridor.

I'm not opposed to any mode in particular for Cumberland to the city, and there are different options, but I think we should focus on one, and I think the best one all around is a frequent commuter rail line that could kinda sorta mimic the use of a metro line. For example, Denver's A-Line commuter rail runs to their airport from their city, at 15 minute intervals- it's basically (not exactly, but basically) achieving the same thing that the MARTA Red and Gold lines are. And it's less expensive, and can run on existing corridors.

Frequent commuter lines are good things, but you're drastically over-selling their ability to replace heavy rail at any real cost advantage. Especially within the core metro area. For starters, you'll immediately run into capacity issues on existing freight lines. They simple do not have the room to operate any kind of frequent passenger service. Full stop.

That means you'll need to build additional track, and much more likely, completely new and seperate track. That immediately adds costs, especially when trying to increase frequencies, which requires double tracking at least. For a route like Cobb, where there's no proper northern terminal for tie-in, you'll have to run service down in to the core, which will run costs up even more.

Then you start getting into service quality issues of the longer times between trains, corridor-separation (particularly away from the Cobb-Pkwy / I-75 corridor), grade-crossings, and of course forced transfers.

Again, the metro absolutely needs extensive commuter rail. It also needs strong, frequent core commuter rail. All this new track will need to happen at some point anyway. Just don't pretend like it's an actual, 1-to-1 replacement of heavy rail because it's not. There's a reason it's cheaper, and that has a lot to do with access and quality.

GA-400 was planned and built that way, is the difference. And unfortunately (stupidly), I-75 wasn't. They didn't even leave space for it. Otherwise, yeah, median would have worked great, as it wouldn't impact communities or NIMBY's or affect traffic.

I said, proposed GA 400 heavy rail line, as in the Connect 400 line, as in the one that GA-400 was not built for.

With that said, I think BRT in what is currently the regular HOV lane, would make a lot of sense. Ideally that lane would be for transit only, but since that's not politically going to happen, I think at least making it a Peach Pass managed lane that BRT buses could make use of (which could be a bi-articulated, autonomously guided vehicle that looks and functions basically just like an LRT would), and maybe do some bumps or something to make it at least a little more of a barrier than just the double striped line.

It's not BRT if it's stuck in traffic, which happens with the HOV lanes. No matter how much you try to trick people with pretty buses.

But, you're the same guy who said that Gwinnett could raise a penny sales tax and get all kind of stuff, but in reality it appears that 1 penny wouldn't pay for any commuter rail at all, and only 1 new MARTA station.

I haven't actually seen any math they did on commuter rail. I have yet to see where they actually said they couldn't afford it. In fact, I think they kicked the idea out early due to refusing to deal with the freight companies, which believe me is not a liked decision amungst Gwinnett MARTA proponents.

For all I know, they could sacrifice a BRT route or two, and some of their planned transit centers (seriously they have a lot of those planned for the network they're actually working towards) to compensate.

I will further point out that they've actually proposed extending high-capacity transit, including heavy rail, up to Gwinnett Place. It's part of the Phase 2 Long Range Plan. Depending on how MARTA handles things, and how the county cooporates, that could be pulled much closer.

Yeah, I mean, dude, Buckhead. The reason that Peachtree streetcar was shot down, is Buckhead. In other parts of the city, it's less of a tough sell, but Buckhead's a suburban area that's got a mind of its own.

I totally 100% agree that Peachtree Rd from Brookhaven to Arts Center, should be a light rail running in the middle of it, with 2 traffic lanes in each direction. I really, really, would love to see that. But I'm pretty doubtful about it.

I've actually thought a lot about that line, and even designed how it could potentially be built. I really do wish it could happen. At least in true BRT form, again with futuristic buses that are basically trains.

I think a huge part of the push back was that it was easy to turn away. It was a plan still going through revision with a long-rang outlook, especially for that line. By the time that the planned network is built-up enough to consider that route a next-step, I dobut that it'd actually be turned down.

Easy to say "take me off the map". Less so when there're a few hundred million dollars in funding pointed at you, and an existing network operating.

I may have misunderstood you, but I thought you said or I assumed you meant replacing at least the HOV lane (and really you would have to lose a regular lane) in order to build the HRT line in the middle of I-75.

And again, it's not me- I'd support it, I'd love it. But it's the general public that's going to balk at losing any capacity.

No, I just said run it in the median. That can take on multiple forms, from removing a lane, to building entire new lanes on the outer edges and then converting the inside lanes to transit, to only shifting things over a bit and removing the emergency shoulders.

As I said, though, my cost estimates were higher than even the Connect 400 high estimate on a per-mile basis, despite being built into the side, and crossing over the freeway three times, so that's an option too.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Updated map to include
New lines: Brown: Cobb -> Collier Road -> West Midtown -> Atlantic Station -> Armour -> TBD [Lindbergh|North Springs|Doraville] (amount of stops could be reduced as a more express roue)

Brown line should have a stop at Moore's Mill or Coronet Way and Marietta. Tons of development happening there. Although, if it's using the existing railroad ROW, it would be a little further back. But, I'd also prefer that the line hit Arts Center via the existing NW spur tunnel, rather than going all the way up to Lindbergh.

[fourthwarden]

Let me just say that I really despise the way you do long replies, bu2. Please, for the ease of everyone, start breaking out the quoted sections rather than adding your comments as part of the quote.

Originally Posted by bu2

If you strangle the vehicle traffic, you simply drive people and businesses further from town over the long run.

Boy, it's a great thing that there'd be this brand new, high-capacity, dedicated right of way transit line right there to provide people the opportunity to not be a part of traffic! How fortunate that that alternative option would then exist where it didn't before.

Light rail, even running in/along the street has yet to cripple pretty much any other city with it, so I doubt Atlanta would fall to ruin for its network.

With railroads and freeways, there's not a lot in that area

Correct? My point was that you were incorrect in calling the Peachtree Line a duplication of the Red Line service. It's not. At all.

Your corridor doesn't have people. And cutting out traffic lanes reduces "service" for 90+% of the people who work in the area.

I'll tell that to all the 8,475 people who rode the 110 daily in 2015 (Comprehensive Operations Analysis), and the 93,211 2015 jobs (Census On the Map Tool) that the corridor would serve. Given the growth of the corridor, I have a hard time thinking that there would be fewer people to serve in coming years.

Oh, and yeah, when you have a road that's almost 100% built for car use, of course you'll have most people driving in it. Duh. The light rail would offer some real alternatives, though, so all those poor, poor car drivers in their space and energy inefficient machines can have the opportunity to still get around if they don't want to still use the still existing traffic lanes.

The green line could be a loop connecting to the Clifton corridor as someone else suggested. There doesn't appear to be any "workable" solution in present plans as the freight rail lines are too heavily used.

Not while being an effective service for Cobb, which is the whole topic of the thread in the first place.

And you seem to want light rail everywhere. Its not cheap-look at the costs on the Clifton corridor. Several places are running into HRT level costs with their light rail plans. As for transfers, its mentally and psychologically easier for passengers to switch rail lines than to switch modes. Most people are not transit fanatics. They see transit as a tool to get where they want at an acceptable price and in an acceptable length of time.

You do realize I've provided an option that still prioritizes heavy rail to the NW, right? Just not in the way that you want, which then enables enough savings to build most, but not all of, an additional light rail line in a corridor that's already been identified for such in the past. I'm literally offering you an opportunity to have 1.5 high-capacity transit lines, rather than only 1.

Also, the Peachtree light rail line would not be anything like the Clifton Corridor, since it would have no tunnels nor any aerial sections. It would all be either median or outer-lane running, saving significantly on costs. Basically it would be $175 Mil. cheaper than heavy rail would be just on base estimates, and before you start adding in the inevitable tunneling costs required for heavy rail to duplicate the same corridor.

Also, also, if you actually think HRT would be cheaper or a truley equivalent cost in the Clifton Corridor, you are badly mistaken. I'll get to exact costs in a sec, but it is still estimated to be cheaper. Heavy rail would either have to dead-end at Emory, go off into a completly different route, or tunnel the rest of the way to Avondale, none of which were really workable options. Light rail, though, can run in medians and adjacent to roads without much harm, while adding more stations and still being cheaper. More service at a reduced cost in that specific corridor.

You don't seem to understand the concept. This would be a 3rd north-south line (or alternatively connecting to the Clifton Corridor). Atlanta and you are still stuck in a downtown centric mindset from 50 years ago that is an anchor on our road network. Atlanta is not Manhattan or San Francisco. Downtown is losing more and more of the non-student, non-government trips. We need to better service the other employment nodes. Transit needs to get people where they want to go, not where transit planners think they should go. Not everyone is going to be a young single or DINKs or high upper middle class who will live in the city with expensive rents, often substandard schools and high crime rates.

Oh, no, I 100% understand the concept, but I have to wonder if you actually have any idea what's happening in the city. All those new developments in both Downtown and Midtown are not going up because they're just so awful and unwanted places. All those planned developments in both Downtown and Midtown are not getting drafted up because they're just so awful and unwanted places.

You need to actually take a look at the reality, and see that, yes, in fact, people are moving to the core city, and yes, in fact, it is growing quite a bit. The combined Midtown-Downtown spine is still the largest concentration of jobs in the metro, and that's only remaining true as more people move in. As the More MARTA expansions roll out, even more destinations, jobs, and residences will come into the fold of the core transit network.

No, not everyone will want to go there, but there will be metric crud ton who will and do.

The tunnel would be expensive, but not that much more than the Clifton Corridor (unless utility lines make tunneling prohibitive). Atlanta has always done what is convenient. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet, spend more and do what is useful, not convenient. It may be that this corridor may be too expensive and generate too little ridership. But it is something that needs study as it runs through one of the densest employment and population, high traffic and poorly served by transit corridors in the city. Below is the aerial image.

The Clifton Corridor's HIGH estimated cost is just a bit higher than the BASE heavy rail estimate per mile. The Clifton Corridor's LOW estimated cost is significantly lower than the BASE heavy rail estimate per mile.

The second you start tunneling with heavy rail, you blow away any real opportunity to appear similar. The Reality is that deep bore tunneling will make heavy rail extremely expensive, and so it should only be done when actually serving a worth cause. You're right that it wouldn't be convenient, but neither would it make any sense.

It would have a horrendous opportunity cost that would ultimately lead to it serving fewer total people and fewer jobs. That is an awful idea. Full stop.

By contrast, I offered a plan that would still connect the NW to the wider network, and thus Buckhead as well, while saving enough money to mostly pay for an additional high-capacity transit line that would far better serve the entire Peachtree corridor rather than one part of it.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

Updated map to include
New lines: Brown: Cobb -> Collier Road -> West Midtown -> Atlantic Station -> Armour -> TBD [Lindbergh|North Springs|Doraville] (amount of stops could be reduced as a more express roue) & Silver Line: Cobb -> East Atlanta via extension to Green line.
Extended Line: Green line: Bankhead -> Knight Park/Howell Station -> Marietta BLVD -> West Midtown -> Atlantic Station -> Armour -> TBD
Stations (small white dots),
General walkability to HRT/commuter stations (larger transparent white dots), included the items below to show how proximity to transit is expanded throughout the city w/the new BRT & LRT routes.
BRT in blue,
LRT in purple (for whatever reason I don't have the crosstown extensions at the moment) (ignore the east end of the Clifton Corridor alignment... I'm not a fan of the terminus both here and at Avondale Estates).

You will NEVER see a transit line named Brown in Atlanta.

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by cqholt

You will NEVER see a transit line named Brown in Atlanta.

Probably not, especially after that ridiculous uproar over the Yellow Line. However, we do have a road named "Browntown Road"...