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Alright, so I finally sat down and did some mapping + math. If you want, you can assess the Google MyMaps map by following this embedded link. I'll go over everything pictorially, though, so you don't have to if you don't want to.
So, as I saw it, and this is partially work that I'd already done as part of the ongoing Transit 4 Cobb campaign, there are three main approaches for getting heavy rail to Cumberland:
An extension of the Green Line NW, through Vinings, following existing rail corridors as much as possible.
A build out of the NW MARTA line as originally planned, with an extension up I-75.
Norwood's suggestion of a tunnel from Lindbergh, though Buckhead, to I-75, then on up.
Before we go much further, here're my per-mile cost assumptions:
I made no distinction between cut & cover style tunneling, and deep bore. Now, this is an admittedly awful thing to do, but I don't know enough to get a good ballpark between the two. This likely benefits the sections that would be deep-bore, like the Buckhead route, in comparison to the cut-and-cover methods more likely used in the Vinings & I-75 routes.
In the following maps, Yellow lines are aerials, Green lines are ground-running, and Blue lines are tunnels.
Vinings
Now, this route would mostly follow the old proctor-creek routing, then make use of existing rail corridors to try and save on right of way needs, though this also brings with it a lot of aerial sections.
Connection would be at Bankhead, of course. The mileages and costs work out to be:
This is actually the most expensive of the options, in no small part due to it being longer than the other two options.
Buckhead
This route would peel off the Gold Line just past the Red / Gold split, in a nice patch of land that's between GA 400 & tracks. IIRC, MARTA uses this land for track-element storage, and a substation. This spot, as opposed to running directly from Lindbergh, means that there's room to dive the line down into a tunnel without needing to tear out existing houses, and would also give a nice work site for running the drill from.
It would, after the turn, go straight for Buckhead village, then on to I-75 around West Paces Ferry. At that point, it would run in a new median, until it got near Cumberland, at which point it would dive into a cut-and-cover tunnel following the little loop road.
Connection would be at Lindbergh, of course. The mileages and costs work out to be:
This was the second most expensive of the options, despite being the shortest length. The tunneling eat real bad into costs for this route, even as suppressed as they may be.
I-75
This route would follow the originally planned NW MARTA extension, making use of the existing tunnel provisions from Arts Center. There would be a good bit of over-and-under around the Brookwood area, until finally the route settles into a new median along I-75, taking example from GA-400. Once it gets near Cumberland, it would dive into a cut-and-cover tunnel following the little loop road.
Connection would be at Arts Center, of course. The mileages and costs work out to be:
This is the least expensive route despite being the second longest distance, due to the large portion of it running more or less on the ground.
So I don't think it's any surprise that my personal favorite is the I-75 Routing. It's the least expensive, doesn't sacrifice a ton of service opportunity, provides direct connection into Midtown & Downtown (and then the airport), and is close enough to Buckhead to still be useful even after a transfer.
Furthermore, none of these options really solves a core issue of the area, which is the lack of high-capacity transit along the entirety of the Peachtree spine from Arts Center to Buckhead itself. That whole corridor needs something, and not just a single cluster within it. That was why the original Streetcar & Light Rail plan called for a line along it.
For those who are willing to spend the money needed to make the Buckhead tunnel idea work, I would suggest that we do take up that much funding, but, with the $232 Mil. you save by building the I-75 route instead, you can fund ~64% of Peachtree Light Rail corridor, which would provide much better service for the entire corridor than the heavy rail line would.
Resurrect that line, make it proper light rail, add in the NW heavy rail line, pile it all on top of the existing and funded system, and then boom, you've got yourself one heck of a network.
The Peachtree light rail strangles auto traffic. And the whole route duplicates much of the current red line. Its only as you get close to Lindberg that the extra service adds value. That's why the HRT makes sense. In addition, it minimizes transfers and makes the transfers easier for people coming on other HRT lines.
There is some value in doing both a Green line extension and a new line through Buckhead. But the Green line would have to be routed to I-75 somewhere between Moores Mill and West Paces to minimize cost. They would run together the last part into Cobb. That would provide a good reverse commute option for people along the green line. It also would effectively build a third of the beltline, and the most problematic part from a ROW standpoint (from where the green/blue lines separate north and east to Lindberg).
I think your proposed Green line probably ends up being the least expensive. The extra $100 million a mile for subway often seems to be an underestimate. But it also has less transit value than the other two.
By installing a higher-capacity option. Road space can not be limited to cars if you want to enable proper mobility within a growing and desifying city like Atlanta. How we make use of the limited surface space is important to prioritize, and cars are a terrible use of that space.
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And the whole route duplicates much of the current red line. Its only as you get close to Lindberg that the extra service adds value. That's why the HRT makes sense. In addition, it minimizes transfers and makes the transfers easier for people coming on other HRT lines.
There is no duplication in that corridor. The ONE station between Arts Center and Buckhead is Lindbergh, and it is over a mile away from the Peachtree corridor.
HRT, as I already pointed out, does not make sense. To service for Buckhead that does nothing for the needs of the Peachtree corridor would actually cost more money.
A transfer can be managed if the over all service improves to the point of far more people actually being able to make use of the system.
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There is some value in doing both a Green line extension and a new line through Buckhead. But the Green line would have to be routed to I-75 somewhere between Moores Mill and West Paces to minimize cost. They would run together the last part into Cobb. That would provide a good reverse commute option for people along the green line. It also would effectively build a third of the beltline, and the most problematic part from a ROW standpoint (from where the green/blue lines separate north and east to Lindberg).
I mean, if you want to do that, and fully ignore all the additional costs of now building out two new extensive heavy rail lines, sure, we can do whatever we want I guess. Why not just have heavy rail everywhere ever always?
And, no, you can't just substitute heavy rail into a chunk of the BeltLine and pretend as if that's a workable solution to the loop, especially after worrying so much about transfers above.
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I think your proposed Green line probably ends up being the least expensive. The extra $100 million a mile for subway often seems to be an underestimate. But it also has less transit value than the other two.
I doubt that, since it didn't have much more tunneling than the I-75 route, but does have more aerial sections. Honestly, the Buckhead route does not justify its costs for the paltry service improvement it offers, at the cost of service to the Howell Mill and other areas, mind you. Especially not if you are right, and the tunneling costs are underplayed. At that point, you could just fund the entire light rail line along Peachtree Rd. with the savings.
The Buckhead tunnel is really not a good option, and the convenience of those who want to go directly to Buckhead village, since it wouldn't even go to the other stations without a transfer in Lindbergh, is not at all worth the opportunity costs.
I agree with many that Commuter Rail is a good solution for Cobb and Cherokee Co. Extending HRT that far is cost prohibitive and will suck up any funding via a Cobb Co transit sales tax. I even think it's a better solution for Lindbergh to Emory connection than LRT. So my proposal is to link the 2 via the Navy Line, adding additional track in the corridor: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4.4137667&z=11
I agree with many that Commuter Rail is a good solution for Cobb and Cherokee Co. Extending HRT that far is cost prohibitive and will suck up any funding via a Cobb Co transit sales tax. I even think it's a better solution for Lindbergh to Emory connection than LRT. So my proposal is to link the 2 via the Navy Line, adding additional track in the corridor: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4.4137667&z=11
My preference is similar to yours (alignment appears identical northwest at the junction by chattahoochee ave and spurring from one RR corridor to the next just past Atlanta Rd)- however I prefer the alignment to the south that includes Atlantic station and west midtown/knight park instead of piedmont hospital. Neither are bad options, IMO, I just really want more transit service in what are/will be a full on walkable neighborhoods. Atlanta has few instances of that
I agree with many that Commuter Rail is a good solution for Cobb and Cherokee Co. Extending HRT that far is cost prohibitive and will suck up any funding via a Cobb Co transit sales tax. I even think it's a better solution for Lindbergh to Emory connection than LRT. So my proposal is to link the 2 via the Navy Line, adding additional track in the corridor: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4.4137667&z=11
I'm going to have to give a hard-pass to replacing the Clifton Corridor LRT, as is funded by a legally limited source and as has been selected after decades of effort to finally make it happen, with CRT.
There does need to be CRT, but trying to force it into the roll of local service provider rather than a regional solution will only make it bad for both.
You basically need both, fulfilling two different roles in the over-all network.
I agree with many that Commuter Rail is a good solution for Cobb and Cherokee Co. Extending HRT that far is cost prohibitive and will suck up any funding via a Cobb Co transit sales tax. I even think it's a better solution for Lindbergh to Emory connection than LRT. So my proposal is to link the 2 via the Navy Line, adding additional track in the corridor: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...4.4137667&z=11
This. I agree completely, and this is my favored solution as well. Just use a Stadler DMU on the CSX rail corridor (and the GNRR corridor for Cherokee), commuter trains shared with freight trains, with added tracks.
Armour MARTA infill station, built from the ground up to accommodate the HRT, CRT, and BeltLine LRT all under one roof. Clifton Corridor would just use this thru Emory, instead of having to dig under Clifton Rd.
Armour could also have platforms for a new Amtrak station, private long distance rail, and/or another CRT on the Norfolk Southern line up thru Gwinnett out to Gainesville. While the CSX line could go out to Gwinnett or maybe even all the way to Athens, or that could be different regional train that does that, on the same track.
All in all, this could be done quickly and cheaply, vs tunnels and heavy rail. And we'd a much longer line. And there's no reason the train couldn't operate about as frequently as HRT would. The RTD commuter rail line in Denver runs every 15 minutes. That approximates a subway service at least as much as we would need.
With heavy rail from Arts Center to Cumberland, I'm going to have to transfer anyway if I want to go up to Buckhead, so this wouldn't be any more transfers than that. Granted you'd have to transfer at Armour to go to Midtown, but Arts Center is just the next stop down. Armour is convenient to both Midtown and Buckhead.
The only thing I'd maybe add, is have another line that runs down to Gulch/Five Points instead of NW Beltline. That way you'd take that train if you wanted to go to the Falcons game or if you wanted to go to Decatur, with fewer transfers. But that isn't really necessary. I would still just use HE Holmes for that line.
And yes, the Cumberland station is not in the perfect ideal place as far as accessing SunTrust Park and the Galleria, but it's close enough. If you want to spend some money on a tunnel, build a nice pedestrian tunnel under Cumberland Mall from the station over to that bridge, with moving sidewalks like the airport.
You basically need both, fulfilling two different roles in the over-all network.
Like all your other proposals, that's great and all, but it's totally disconnected from socio-political reality on the ground. It's simply never gonna happen. Cobb County has resisted rail for decades, so I think ONE line is enough to ask for. How about let's start there, especially since commuter rail could have high frequency.
Also, running the train in the median of I-75 would only happen if you widened I-75 so that there's no net loss of lanes. Which would add hugely to the cost of that.
The populace doesn't agree with your opposition to cars. I may totally agree with you myself, but the general public will be up in arms about any proposal that takes away any existing ROW that's for cars, in order to replace it with mass transit. It's hard enough to sell conservatives on building the transit- you're making that argument twice as hard by saying it should replace their lanes on their freeway.
And as far as your statement that cars are a terrible use of the limited transportation space, yeah, but that's theory, that's in a vacuum. In a low density metro area such as Atlanta, cars have more inherent transportation value than they do in other places. Places where you can, you know, walk to the stations.
With the Top-End Perimeter managed lanes project and potential use by express buses and BRT, a connection between Cumberland, Perimeter, and Doraville can be created. Allowing Cobb-to-Buckhead users the choice of accessing Buckhead via Perimeter or Arts Center.
High Quality BRT can work and people ride it. Look at projects like LA Metro's Orange Line, HealthLine, and others. BRT if done correctly can be successful. I am willing to remain opptomistic that the GA400 Managed Lanes and BRT can be successful. People need to get over the fact of transferring, it's part of using transit and if MARTA can arrange the schedule to minimize rider's wait for BRT to train it will attract riders.
Poor DeKalb Co, only has 1 1/2 Employment Centers.
Best idea actually, just run the one commuter rail line from Cobb to Armour via the Tilford ROW, and then just extend the Green Line by one station north to meet with it, as a transfer point if you're headed Downtown or to the stadiums or to Inman Park or Decatur. And just have the Green Line run all the way out east to Indian Creek, with Blue.
That way, we don't really even need the train station in the Gulch, as Five Points MARTA would serve that role. Commuter rail hubs could be Armour for the north side and East Point for the south side.
Like all your other proposals, that's great and all, but it's totally disconnected from socio-political reality on the ground. It's simply never gonna happen. Cobb County has resisted rail for decades, so I think ONE line is enough to ask for. How about let's start there, especially since commuter rail could have high frequency.
I was specifically talking about trying to replace the Clifton Corridor with commuter rail, not doubling service in Cobb
As for putting heavy rail up to Cobb, I was comparing the routing options in a hypothetical assumption that one would get built, as is the topic of this thread
I know perfectly well Cobb's collective opinions on the subject, and was not making any statement with regard to which would be easier, or even possible to build
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Also, running the train in the median of I-75 would only happen if you widened I-75 so that there's no net loss of lanes. Which would add hugely to the cost of that.
I'll agree that median running is not necessarily the best option, but even if it follows the build style of the proposed GA 400 heavy rail line, building along the sides, and crossing the interstate in multiple places, the per-mile costs actually wouldn't really go up that much.
The High-End cost for the East-West-East HRT proposal was estimated to cost $2.3 Bil. for 11.5 miles. That's $202 Mil. per mile compared to my estimate of $250 Mil. per mile.
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The populace doesn't agree with your opposition to cars. I may totally agree with you myself, but the general public will be up in arms about any proposal that takes away any existing ROW that's for cars, in order to replace it with mass transit.
Inside the City of Atlanta? A city that is, according the ARC, still willing to pay more in taxes to fund yet more transit? A city that has been actively reassigning road-space for bikes? A city that has made it local ordinance to design new streetcars and light rail with dedicated facilities? A city that's actively planning to reassign road space to BRT lines?
That city would have too much opposition to a full new light rail line, that it was already planning before, to enable it to be in dedicated lanes?
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It's hard enough to sell conservatives on building the transit- you're making that argument twice as hard by saying it should replace their lanes on their freeway.
Whoa, wait, where the heck did you get that idea? Where in this thread did I say to reassign freeway lanes to transit?
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And as far as your statement that cars are a terrible use of the limited transportation space, yeah, but that's theory, that's in a vacuum. In a low density metro area such as Atlanta, cars have more inherent transportation value than they do in other places. Places where you can, you know, walk to the stations.
It's almost like I suggested putting light rail connecting two dense nodes, through a dense corridor, that's been explicitly called out for additional growth by the city, in a wider city and metro that are projected to continue to grow and densify in incredible ways into the future.
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