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saw this thread and as a former resident of greater Atlanta, you all have my sympathies on area mobility. I have visited several times since moving away over 12 years ago and its disappointing that the locals have not been afforded better leadership in improving local transit. Its intriguing from an urban planning perspective to compare what' happened, or not happened, to say D.C. which has a similar core city/suburban dynamic and another key Sunbelt competitor Dallas/Fort Worth. Metro D.C.'s rail has been extended twice since 2000, adding to an already extensive network. D/FW has built out over 120 miles of light rail, Trolley Car, street car and heavy rail the last 25 years, opening its sixth light rail line just this month.
That said, I'm curious to ask does anyone know if GaDot and ARC ever visit markets such as D.C. and D/FW to see why those areas show greater acceptance and commitment that the Atlanta area? They are equally as large if not larger with multiple municipalities involved.
Yes, Regional leaders go on annual trips to learn best practices from other Metros in the States and Canada - and have been doing so for many years now.
What's interesting is that with substantially more than double the rail trackage of Atlanta across a much larger geographical area with several million more people, Dallas has less than half of MARTA'S daily ridership.
Somethings not right with this equation, and its design is certainly not worth us emulating.
As far as D.C. goes, they've had access to Federal funding from day one that other Metro's could only dream of.
I'm not sure that Dallas's and Houston's rapid growths are something to envy. They put a tremendous amount of pressure on the existing transportation networks. For instance, the powers-that-be already decided that Beltway 8 did not suffice as Houston's outer loop, and now the 170-mile-long Grand Parkway will encircle it.
I'm a native Houstonian. Beltway 8 and the Grand Parkway (Hwy 99) have been on the planning board for generations. Beltway 8 began way back in the late 1970s and finished in the 1990s. No mobility expert in Texas worth his/her salt would have thought Beltway 8 was the end-all to traffic flow. Metro Atlanta had great level of growth too but slowed due to the banking/housing bubble of 2008/09 slowed things down while Dallas/FW and Houston benefit from a high-paying sector Georgia does not have - Energy. And everyone in Texas knows Oil & Gas has been a boom/bust industry for 100 years. Now with new technology, the bust aspect is not as frequent, so growth in Texas continues to point up. In addition, Texas is big High Tech state and in general the state has benefitted from tons of California companies (Fluor, Toyota, Kubota and Jamba Juice to name few) relocating their north American HQs to Texas.
I'm a native Houstonian. Beltway 8 and the Grand Parkway (Hwy 99) have been on the planning board for generations. Beltway 8 began way back in the late 1970s and finished in the 1990s. No mobility expert in Texas worth his/her salt would have thought Beltway 8 was the end-all to traffic flow. Metro Atlanta had great level of growth too but slowed due to the banking/housing bubble of 2008/09 slowed things down while Dallas/FW and Houston benefit from a high-paying sector Georgia does not have - Energy. And everyone in Texas knows Oil & Gas has been a boom/bust industry for 100 years. Now with new technology, the bust aspect is not as frequent, so growth in Texas continues to point up. In addition, Texas is big High Tech state and in general the state has benefitted from tons of California companies (Fluor, Toyota, Kubota and Jamba Juice to name few) relocating their north American HQs to Texas.
No, to all of this. Metro Atlanta & North Georgia simply doesn't have the stomach to shred our landscape and enable sprawl up into the Foothills. The Outer Perimeter proposal brought down a popular Governor.
This isn't Texas, and we're not talking about slicing up prairie here to build freeways. New or old, North Georgians are pretty much adamantly against even the idea of this.
saw this thread and as a former resident of greater Atlanta, you all have my sympathies on area mobility. I have visited several times since moving away over 12 years ago and its disappointing that the locals have not been afforded better leadership in improving local transit. Its intriguing from an urban planning perspective to compare what' happened, or not happened, to say D.C. which has a similar core city/suburban dynamic and another key Sunbelt competitor Dallas/Fort Worth. Metro D.C.'s rail has been extended twice since 2000, adding to an already extensive network. D/FW has built out over 120 miles of light rail, Trolley Car, street car and heavy rail the last 25 years, opening its sixth light rail line just this month.
That said, I'm curious to ask does anyone know if GaDot and ARC ever visit markets such as D.C. and D/FW to see why those areas show greater acceptance and commitment that the Atlanta area? They are equally as large if not larger with multiple municipalities involved.
Issue isn't GADOT as if they went unrestrained, Metro Atlanta would have a freeway system that would rival DFW. They have planned and planned again but their hands are tied to the overall political agenda of the metro. Project cancellations as response due to nimbys and literal highlights of certain political leader campaigns followed by excessive short sighted views as the surrounding metro area of Atlanta decided that they wanted to live in a bubble rather than a metro thus limiting or altogether prohibiting mass transit from expanding very far from the core. Too many local entities with altogether different agendas with none willing to compromise and have too much power and say over the outcome of the metro as a whole.
Issue isn't GADOT as if they went unrestrained, Metro Atlanta would have a freeway system that would rival DFW. They have planned and planned again but their hands are tied to the overall political agenda of the metro. Project cancellations as response due to nimbys and literal highlights of certain political leader campaigns followed by excessive short sighted views as the surrounding metro area of Atlanta decided that they wanted to live in a bubble rather than a metro thus limiting or altogether prohibiting mass transit from expanding very far from the core. Too many local entities with altogether different agendas with none willing to compromise and have too much power and say over the outcome of the metro as a whole.
Some of those NIMBYs prevented some our historic and most expensive intown neighborhoods from being torn down.
Some of those NIMBYs prevented some our historic and most expensive intown neighborhoods from being torn down.
It wasn't the Nimbys that prevented that, it was the money.
I'm not exactly about throwing a freeway up around every corner. I dont think ITP really needs more freeways as much as more connecting mass transit to the outer suburban areas... but I'm also not exactly a favor of neighborhoods over entire populations. If Atlanta was about 2.5 - 3 million in size, much more justifiable... but to prevent the progression of the metro as a whole over a few small districts in perspective... I personally see no value in.
It wasn't the Nimbys that prevented that, it was the money.
I'm not exactly about throwing a freeway up around every corner. I dont think ITP really needs more freeways as much as more connecting mass transit to the outer suburban areas... but I'm also not exactly a favor of neighborhoods over entire populations. If Atlanta was about 2.5 - 3 million in size, much more justifiable... but to prevent the progression of the metro as a whole over a few small districts in perspective... I personally see no value in.
You are confusing growth with sprawl. Atlanta can grow, it can become more dense which will optimize our transit system.
You are confusing growth with sprawl. Atlanta can grow, it can become more dense which will optimize our transit system.
Even if everyone in the entire metro shared the mindset of willingness or even desire to live within a dense environment, it can only grow so dense before the cost of providing residency and resources to the area become greater than the average consumer can afford. Unless the government stepped in in some way to enact affordable homing (and this failed in Los Angeles by a large margin) it will only become so dense before the population is unable to sustain it thus forcing them out into the outer areas of the city..or basically..sprawling it.
Also, at this point with the multiple job hubs in the metro and the unlikelihood of corporations moving to more expensive dense areas (as for MANY corporations in Atlanta, their incentive of moving here was enacted by the suburban lifestyle and personal campus within less dense and more affordable areas.) Any hope of solving Atlanta's traffic troubles by just simply densifying it are mostly null. It would be almost impossible.
It wasn't the Nimbys that prevented that, it was the money.
I'm not exactly about throwing a freeway up around every corner. I dont think ITP really needs more freeways as much as more connecting mass transit to the outer suburban areas... but I'm also not exactly a favor of neighborhoods over entire populations. If Atlanta was about 2.5 - 3 million in size, much more justifiable... but to prevent the progression of the metro as a whole over a few small districts in perspective... I personally see no value in.
Sorry, but no. People were chaining themselves to the bulldozers and trees at the height of the Freeway Wars here. It was most definitely the Nimby's. The final result is the Freedom Parkway and the Carter Presidential Library, rather than massive destruction of much of the City with a Spaghetti Junction sized interchange layered over Inman Park.
Another more recent example is 400 ITP. The residents of the City refused to allow it unless MARTA was in place in the median up to the Perimeter. It's unwise to underestimate the general distaste here for new Freeways anywhere in the Metro, but particularly ITP.
Even if everyone in the entire metro shared the mindset of willingness or even desire to live within a dense environment, it can only grow so dense before the cost of providing residency and resources to the area become greater than the average consumer can afford. Unless the government stepped in in some way to enact affordable homing (and this failed in Los Angeles by a large margin) it will only become so dense before the population is unable to sustain it thus forcing them out into the outer areas of the city..or basically..sprawling it.
Also, at this point with the multiple job hubs in the metro and the unlikelihood of corporations moving to more expensive dense areas (as for MANY corporations in Atlanta, their incentive of moving here was enacted by the suburban lifestyle and personal campus within less dense and more affordable areas.) Any hope of solving Atlanta's traffic troubles by just simply densifying it are mostly null. It would be almost impossible.
Though increasing density in parts of the urban core (particularly along major commercial nodes and around transit stations and along transit lines) definitely should be part of a strategy for dealing with traffic congestion and mobility issues in a still fast-growing large major metro area like Atlanta, I agree with your point that a large major metro area like Atlanta cannot necessarily hope to solve its traffic challenges just by simply densifying the core alone.
But the past few years have been full of instances of companies and corporations, large and small, moving both their operations and even their headquarters into denser areas in and near the urban core of the Atlanta metropolitan area.
NCR and Norfolk Southern are two major examples of large companies that moved their corporate headquarters to a "more expensive dense area" in an urban core neighborhood/business district in Midtown Atlanta.
NCR actually moved their corporate headquarters from a less-dense suburban environment in Gwinnett County to a more-dense urban Intown neighborhood/business district in Midtown.
Here is a link to a list of the roughly 17 corporations that created nearly 12,500 jobs in a "more expensive dense area" in Midtown Atlanta from January 2015 through February 2017:
Keep in mind that Norfolk Southern (which already had extensive operations in Midtown) has since announced that it would move its corporate headquarters to Midtown Atlanta.
That is all the while many other companies, corporations and law firms have had corporate headquarters and major operations in more-expensive higher-density districts like Midtown and Downtown for decades, including Equifax, Earthlink, Invesco, Coca-Cola (world headquarters), AT&T, Wells Fargo, PriceWaterhouseCoopers, King & Spalding, Kilpatrick & Stockton, Google, Arcapita, Jason's Deli, CNN, SunTrust, Bank of America, Georgia-Pacific, Troutman Sanders, Southern Company, Georgia Power, Regions Bank, BB&T, Turner, PNC Bank, etc.
Heck, it was IBM that kicked off a renaissance of sorts of companies moving their operations back into the urban core (as well as a high-rise building boom in Midtown Atlanta) when it moved into the then newly-constructed One Atlantic Center skyscraper at the corner of 14th and West Peachtree streets in Midtown Atlanta way back in 1987.
Meanwhile, Mercedes-Benz moved their North American corporate headquarters into, and State Farm constructed a large high-rise building in a "more expensive" densifying post-suburban urban environment in the Perimeter Center area. State Farm actually built their high-rise facility/campus so that it would have direct access to high-capacity rail transit at the Dunwoody MARTA Station.
That's while construction firm Brasfield & Gorrie moved its Atlanta-area office from a less-expensive lower-density area in Kennesaw to a more-expensive densifying higher-density post-suburban urban district in Cumberland next to a couple of large high-density apartment buildings around the corner from the Atlanta Braves' SunTrust Park stadium/Battery mixed-use development.
That's also while one of the world's largest elevator companies, Thyssenkrupp Elevator Americas, announced that it would build its North American Headquarters (in the form of a complex that includes a 420-foot-tall elevator qualification and test tower) in a more-expensive densifying post-suburban urban environment in the Cumberland area next to The Battery.
There is no doubt that (just like its large major Southeastern and Sun Belt metro peers) Atlanta is a metropolitan area with an extremely large and often domineering expanse of suburbs... But let's be very careful not to completely overlook and/or glance over the critically importance of the urban core as a main hub of business, commerce, employment, economic, social and cultural activity for a large major metro area/region like Atlanta.
Last edited by Born 2 Roll; 01-28-2019 at 02:03 AM..
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