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People said Gwinnett and Cobb would never approve MARTA. Yet there is a very good chance both join in the near future.
I agree that there is a much improved chance that both Gwinnett and Cobb counties (whose previously long conservative-dominated electorates were highly resistant to the idea of MARTA and/or any kind of mass transit being extended into their jurisdictions from Atlanta) potentially could join MARTA in the not-too-distant future.
But with some of the polling that I have seen in Gwinnett County in advance of the coming MARTA referendum in March, along with the weird date of having the referendum in the month of March and not during a presidential election (when Democratic and progressive voter turnout would be highest and give such a transit tax referendum its best chances of passing) or even during a gubernatorial election (where Democratic/progressive voter turnout has been improving and on the upswing in large metro Atlanta counties like Gwinnett), I am not sure that the coming MARTA referendum will be the 'slam-dunk' for pro-MARTA and pro-transit interests that many seem to think it will be.
There is a very strong possibility that the electorate may not be anywhere near as large as it might be during a presidential or even a gubernatorial election, giving the anti-MARTA/anti-transit conservative side a chance to dominate voter turnout with no votes and send the MARTA referendum down in flames... Something that, were it to happen, likely would not feel like a good thing in an increasingly urban and increasingly heavily-developed county of almost 1 million residents where traffic congestion seemingly continues to be a growing challenge.
The changing demographics of Gwinnett County's electorate say that the MARTA referendum should pass easily.
But the weird date of the referendum in March of a non-election year seems to give the referendum a significantly higher chance of failure than many might think should be the case.
… That is particularly in a county like Gwinnett where a large base of anti-transit voters continues to be politically active, even in the growing shadow of a rapidly changing and diversifying overall larger electorate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
And probably half the people in Cherokee and Forsyth weren't there at the turn of the century. Gwinnett has twice the population it had in 1990.
Yep. The populations of Northern Crescent counties like Cherokee, Forsyth and Gwinnett are significantly higher than they were in past census years like 1990 (when Gwinnett last voted on (and voted down) MARTA expansion) and 2000 (when the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc controversy was raging in counties like Cherokee and Forsyth).
Cherokee County population 2000: 141,903
Cherokee County population 2017: 247,573
(74% population increase 2000-2017)
Forsyth County population 2000: 98,407
Forsyth County population 2017: 227,967
(132% population increase from 2000-2017)
Gwinnett County population 1990: 352,910
Gwinnett County population 2017: 920,260
(161% population increase from 1990-2017)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Traffic damaging quality of life will get people to change their minds about things like highways and transit.
And I agree that the damage that increasing traffic congestion does to quality-of-life will (or at least should) get people to change their minds about things like highways and transit.
And while how an increasingly heavily-populated and increasingly urban county like Gwinnett handles its mobility issues will be dependent on how many voters turnout to cast ballots on both sides of the MARTA and transit expansion issue, one probably should not be so sure that increased traffic congestion in outlying Northern Crescent counties like Cherokee and Forsyth will get people to change their minds about accepting the construction through their areas of a highly-controversial highway like the Northern Arc at any in the foreseeable future (if ever) or even accepting mass transit connections from Atlanta in the immediate future.
People in Cherokee and Forsyth counties view their outer-suburban/exurban communities as part of the North Georgia Mountains and Blue Ridge Mountains foothills regions... And they view any proposed large-scale road construction project (like an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc down to even the widening of Georgia SR 20) as a severe disruption to (if not as a direct assault on) their preferred (and cherished) outer-suburban/semi-exurban North Georgia Mountains/Blue Ridge Mountains foothills way-of-life.
Not to mention that local, regional and national environmentalists view a proposed Northern Atlanta outer loop as a major encroachment of heavy metropolitan development patterns (and a direct assault) on the environmental well-being of the greater Blue Ridge/Southern Appalachians mountains region... And will fiercely fight any revived Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter proposal using tools from widespread public relations campaigns up to chaining themselves to and laying in front of bulldozers if it comes down to it.
Re a post above about whether trucks would be willing to pay for express lanes: the top-end 285 proposal prohibits trucks on express lanes except for small box trucks.
Metro Atlanta and Georgia just lack the will power and vision to make an outer perimeter a reality. In Houston, they are building on their THIRD highway loop. The first completed by 1970 has a five mile radius from downtown. The second Beltway 8 was completed in the 1990s, at a 10 mile radius from downtown. Now, the third, aka the Grand Parkway, a good 25 miles in radius from downtown. Its operational on the westside and partly on the north.
Metro Atlanta and Georgia don't lack the willpower and vision to make an Outer Perimeter a reality.
Georgia officials tried doggedly to push through the construction of an Outer Perimeter back in the late 1990's and early 2000's during the administration of then-Georgia Governor Roy Barnes.
But the opposition and public backlash to the proposed road was so severe, that it played a major role in Barnes losing his bid for re-election to Sonny Perdue (who won in part running against the increasingly unpopular road in 2002) and officially cancelled the road shortly after being elected as Georgia's first Republican governor since Reconstruction in early 2003.
And no Georgia governor has wanted to back such a controversial road construction proposal since, if not just simply because proposing to build an Outer Perimeter highway is not something that sits very well with voters in the part of the state that often decides the outcome of statewide elections in the metro Atlanta suburbs and exurbs.
Atlanta and Georgia are not Houston and Texas.
Houston can build 3 superhighway loops outside of the city because it is not surrounded by heavily-wooded foothills and mountainous forest wilderness areas that local residents and national environmentalists consider to be largely off-limits to new superhighway construction.
In MSA you would be correct but in CSA (which is a large contributor to the metros traffic) this would be incorrect. Boston has a CSA of approximately 8 Million People or about 1 Million more than Atlanta.
In MSA you would be correct but in CSA (which is a large contributor to the metros traffic) this would be incorrect. Boston has a CSA of approximately 8 Million People or about 1 Million more than Atlanta.
Boston CSA is served by commuter rail which Atlanta does not have, so they should be getting a significant higher number of longer-distance commuters off their roads than we do.
So in lieu of an official outer perimeter proposal, I was messing around and put together some various Georgia road upgrade proposals, that when combined would really help Metro Atlanta traffic, by taking a lot of the pressure off. Actually I like this better than an outer perimeter.
1. Build a new tolled bypass freeway between 75 and 85, I'm calling it the North Georgia Tollway. So this would only have 5 exits/interchanges: I-75 north of Calhoun, an extended I-575 north of Jasper, an extended GA-400 south of Dahlonega, an extended I-985 north of Gainesville, and with I-85, where you can also continue straight on an upgraded Highway 441 towards Athens, where GA-316 would be extended to as full freeway.
-This would take tons of traffic off the 285 top end, particularly all the tractor trailers. While also not inducing any more north side sprawl.
2. Build Interstate 14 across Middle Georgia, from Montgomery to Columbus to Macon to Augusta. This would relieve the south side of Metro Atlanta, with a new main interstate route for trucks and travelers, that bypasses Atlanta altogether.
-Would also help Georgia's other cities grow more. Macon/Columbus/Augusta obviously, but also Milledgeville. Georgia's leadership is getting behind the idea now, and parts of the route are already under construction already in Texas.
3. Upgrade Highway 441, between I-85 and I-16, via Athens/316/78, I-20, and the new I-14. More lanes and straighter. High speed limit. No stop signs, and few traffic lights. Some stacked interchanges at key points.
-This would form the east wall of a new unofficial outer perimeter (only the top end would be full freeway).
4. Similar upgrade for Highway 78 between Athens and Augusta. This would help relieve I-20 some, would grow Augusta metro a bit, and would really solidify Athens as a city/ regional hub.
5. Continue to upgrade the GA-20 corridor, between Rome and Lawrenceville. More lanes in some spots, straighter, faster, etc. So this would be like the middle-outer perimeter.
6. This is the big idea I had. Complete the outer loop, by running a 4-lane, straightened, arterial road between I-75 at the North Georgia Tollway, all the way around in a circle to I-20 at 441. Via Rome, Cedartown, Carrolton, Newnan, Griffin, etc.
- So this would be an upgrade/slight re-routing of Hwy 27, GA-16, and GA-83.
7. Upgrade 278/Thornton Rd/Camp Creek Pkwy, between the airport and the west wall of the outer loop.
8. Identify other arterial corridors, either existing or improved/straightened roads. Maybe rename them, in order to highlight them as cross-town routes and loops.
Anyway I think all that, plus the existing freeway and road system, plus commuter rail and heavy rail extensions, would be all we'd need to greatly improve the situation and improve travel times and commutes and just general navigation options.
Boston CSA is served by commuter rail which Atlanta does not have, so they should be getting a significant higher number of longer-distance commuters off their roads than we do.
I personally dont really feel commuter rail is effective for removing vehicular traffic but mainly as an alternative to driving for those willing to use it. It typically only runs during commute hours and is typically only good for connecting you to the hub of the city where as automobiles can be going to several places not related 5o the hub.
I personally dont really feel commuter rail is effective for removing vehicular traffic but mainly as an alternative to driving for those willing to use it. It typically only runs during commute hours and is typically only good for connecting you to the hub of the city where as automobiles can be going to several places not related 5o the hub.
Only a few systems utilize that sparse type of schedule. Robust systems like MARC (Penn Line), NJT, SEPTA, Metro North, Long Island Railroad, Los Angeles Metrolink, Trinity Rail Express, all have all day bidirectional service. Sure it's clustered at the rush hours, but they are quite effective.
Yes but here is one thing we may be overlooking. Without zoning restrictions or limited exits and tolling, that route would become a logistical dreamscape. Think of it. It connects I-75, I,575, GA-400, I-985, and I-85. All accessible without needing even to come close to Atlanta. Freight and businesses that depend on freight will absolutely eat that alive, after that, jobs come and when jobs come...so does even more development. It's TRUE that those areas developed far more than predicted without freeway connectivity but any new major road would really need to inhibit as much sprawl as possible for it to be feasible.
I'm kind of thinking alot of Texas bound traffic is actually coming from I-85 North (from the Carolinas and Northeast) and I-75 South (from Florida). I am kind of doubting we would see anything significant in the aspect of logistics with the completion of I-14 ... ... but I-14 would definitely make my personal commutes to and from Austin <-> Atlanta alot easier. I just drove back last night down I-10 thru Houston. 16 hours.
I would definitely definitely DEFINITELY pay to bypass Atlanta during commute hours if I wasn't going to it . In Houston, Sam Houston Tollway only costs about $5 to bypass Houston. It's much better than sitting on I-10.
Here in Austin, tollroads are pretty much the norm as far as getting around.. If it was convenient and saved time people would definitely pay to use it.
Note that such a tollway doesn't HAVE to be managed by a PeachPass either. Texas, North Carolina and several other states have Pay By Mail options as well or we can go as far as Floridas method and install optional cash / card booths. Also even with PeachPass NCQuickPass and Florida Sunpass will also work and many drivers heading to Florida have surpasses. Worse come to worse Georgia could (and really should) join the E-ZPass system
And these things are becoming more interchangeable with other states. The truckers all have the necessary passes.
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