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I always love reading the extreme criticism architect77 has about all things roadway related. Some of the better posting on this forum.
Also, when people say "adding lanes doesn't help" and other people dismiss the idea entirely, we need to be more specific about what is being discussed.
It's quite complex:
1. The shorter commute times "induce demand" in traffic over the long run because people realize the commute isn't so bad from the NW side, so they buy/build more homes in the area to take advantage of the faster commute.
2. People on the NW side now also have the ability to commute deeper into the city (top end 285, downtown, airport, etc) in the same amount of time. They'll tend to do this. Therefore, it's reasonable to expect that traffic will get worse on the major roads feeding into 75.
3. The flip side of #1 is that the people were likely to buy/build homes somewhere, so it makes some degree of economic sense to build them in this area which now has improved roadway access rather than spread across the other parts of metro Atlanta. So in that sense, perhaps it does benefit traffic to a minuscule degree across the whole metro, since more growth is directed to this area with a new transportation project.
4. It definitely encourages suburban sprawl to have this sort of project, as it opens up a new area into having a greater degree of commuting options that is very suburban. This is why city advocates are sometimes against this sort of project--it tilts the scales more in favor of the suburbs being feasible to develop further.
5. Traffic is gonna keep on getting worse in general forever anhd everyone should probably just get over it. Until self driving cars, at least.
Every aspect of this post is speculation.
The separate lanes that cost $ to use made a little improvement on I-75, and you’re predicting that a tiny relief will be noticed by developers and buyers steer all of their efforts to the NW. Landowners too will see this as a windfall opportunity to sell to developers & here’s the next residential boom, up I-75.
This metro region is the nexus of interstates for the Southeast, we’re already sharing our basic freeway arrangement with thru-state traffic, 50% of our local traffic is movement of products and goods, and you are against doing any improvements.
Does anything such as air quality register with you people? Gridlock is the most polluting state our transportation network can be in. North Carolina even sets aside 5% of gas tax revenue for a loop fund, to build loops around all the state’s smaller cities because loops are the best way to keep traffic flowing as they offer access to every arterial eventually. They provide an alternate to every road in one swoop.
I want trains and rail too, but money doesn’t grow on trees and you improve what you can with what funding you have.
Atlanta is surrounded by Land, people who hate automobile travel so much shouldn’t live here because common sense says it will always be the dominant form of transportation.
Induced demand is a real thing but you have extrapolated it so far into the nether regions that it’s a waste of time to even read.
If you hate more sprawl then fix the intown public schools and improve their performance statistics and you’ll have removed half of the reason people endure the long commutes, then build lots of dense housing affordable and amenable to families.
Atlanta’s propensity for taking more & more of people’s money for little to nothing except corruption in return is another huge repellant.
I always love reading the extreme criticism architect77 has about all things roadway related. Some of the better posting on this forum.
Also, when people say "adding lanes doesn't help" and other people dismiss the idea entirely, we need to be more specific about what is being discussed.
It's quite complex:
1. The shorter commute times "induce demand" in traffic over the long run because people realize the commute isn't so bad from the NW side, so they buy/build more homes in the area to take advantage of the faster commute.
2. People on the NW side now also have the ability to commute deeper into the city (top end 285, downtown, airport, etc) in the same amount of time. They'll tend to do this. Therefore, it's reasonable to expect that traffic will get worse on the major roads feeding into 75.
3. The flip side of #1 is that the people were likely to buy/build homes somewhere, so it makes some degree of economic sense to build them in this area which now has improved roadway access rather than spread across the other parts of metro Atlanta. So in that sense, perhaps it does benefit traffic to a minuscule degree across the whole metro, since more growth is directed to this area with a new transportation project.
4. It definitely encourages suburban sprawl to have this sort of project, as it opens up a new area into having a greater degree of commuting options that is very suburban. This is why city advocates are sometimes against this sort of project--it tilts the scales more in favor of the suburbs being feasible to develop further.
5. Traffic is gonna keep on getting worse in general forever and everyone should probably just get over it. Until self driving cars, at least.
#1 thru 4 isnt how induced demand works in the slightest.
People don't move to areas because there's less traffic, nor do they move because someone built a highway in the area. When is the last time you moved somewhere just because they made a new highway? Home developers specifically would see little benefit with the presence of a highway alone.
People move to be local to their job. Industries are the entities who take advantage of highway projects because they bring logistical advantages they cant find under ordinary circumstances, being both close to an urban environment (workers, utilities, possible co-op operations, ect) while being close to a fast and reliable means of moving both goods and people are what they require thus they thrive on increased capacity or high speed roadways to transport goods / materials / provide a reliable way for workers to reach the facility. People are not moving close to a 'highway' - they are moving within reach of their 'employer'. The road is just the median of reaching the ultimate goal.
Lastly the other part of induced demand has little to do with more people moving within the vicinity of extra capacity but more so people who are ALREADY LIVING in the area now taking advantage of the extra capacity who normally would not drive / avoid errands on a road that was already jammed. They are now able to do things easier now because traffic is free flowing. Tolled / managed lanes do a good job a mitigating these drivers however as to detur them from using the extra capacity by imposing a charge to any who use the road therefore they typically only use it if they really need to.
#1 thru 4 isnt how induced demand works in the slightest.
People don't move to areas because there's less traffic, nor do they move because someone built a highway in the area. When is the last time you moved somewhere just because they made a new highway? Home developers specifically would see little benefit with the presence of a highway alone.
People move to be local to their job. Industries are the entities who take advantage of highway projects because they bring logistical advantages they cant find under ordinary circumstances, being both close to an urban environment (workers, utilities, possible co-op operations, ect) while being close to a fast and reliable means of moving both goods and people are what they require thus they thrive on increased capacity or high speed roadways to transport goods / materials / provide a reliable way for workers to reach the facility. People are not moving close to a 'highway' - they are moving within reach of their 'employer'. The road is just the median of reaching the ultimate goal.
Lastly the other part of induced demand has little to do with more people moving within the vicinity of extra capacity but more so people who are ALREADY LIVING in the area now taking advantage of the extra capacity who normally would not drive / avoid errands on a road that was already jammed. They are now able to do things easier now because traffic is free flowing. Tolled / managed lanes do a good job a mitigating these drivers however as to detur them from using the extra capacity by imposing a charge to any who use the road therefore they typically only use it if they really need to.
And while that is true, the number of people making those decisions is minimal.
There is no more overplayed concept that "induced demand."
And being local to their job is well down the list of priorities. Its the house, the price of the house, schools, crime. People do want a reasonable commute, but Forsyth would still be a tiny rural county if being close to jobs was the top priority.
There is no more overplayed concept that "induced demand."
My favorite style quote is "you can widen the road, but in twenty years it will just be filled again...induced demand!!" Induced demand would be felt quickly. Twenty years down the road is just natural growth. Atlanta's interstates barely changed at all from the mid 90s to the mid 10s. I don't believe a single lane was added. That's more twenty straight years of almost no highway change at all. Yet, the population almost doubled in that time. But, now that we add a few lanes to try to provide capacity relief, suddenly, "induced demand" becomes a problem? What induced the 100% population growth and the moving further and further out if there were no new roads at the time?
Of course, we've found that "induced demand" accounts for increases in volume, decreases in volume, and no change in volume. So, basically, everything is "induced demand".
My favorite style quote is "you can widen the road, but in twenty years it will just be filled again...induced demand!!" Induced demand would be felt quickly. Twenty years down the road is just natural growth. Atlanta's interstates barely changed at all from the mid 90s to the mid 10s. I don't believe a single lane was added. That's more twenty straight years of almost no highway change at all. Yet, the population almost doubled in that time. But, now that we add a few lanes to try to provide capacity relief, suddenly, "induced demand" becomes a problem? What induced the 100% population growth and the moving further and further out if there were no new roads at the time?
Of course, we've found that "induced demand" accounts for increases in volume, decreases in volume, and no change in volume. So, basically, everything is "induced demand".
So you don’t think there are diminishing returns to continue widening existing corridors?
So you don’t think there are diminishing returns to continue widening existing corridors?
To a point. But you guys act like widening any road, any where, at any time, is a completely useless project that would have no benefit and only "encourage sprawl".
I've been driving around Memphis this weekend (and every time I come here...it's my hometown) and marveling at how there is just simply very little traffic. They built their road network to handle it, unlike Atlanta.
To a point. But you guys act like widening any road, any where, at any time, is a completely useless project that would have no benefit and only "encourage sprawl".
I've been driving around Memphis this weekend (and every time I come here...it's my hometown) and marveling at how there is just simply very little traffic. They built their road network to handle it, unlike Atlanta.
They also have a population size that's nearly a fifth of the Atlanta metro area. That might have something to do with it too.
Atlanta metro: 5.9 million
Memphis metro: 1.3 million
They also have a population size that's nearly a fifth of the Atlanta metro area. That might have something to do with it too.
Atlanta metro: 5.9 million
Memphis metro: 1.3 million
And a metro area that's about a third of the area. Yes, it is less dense, and everyone drives. There's very little walking or biking here. No train and few busses which are only used by a small subset of people. But, there is simply no traffic. I almost never have to wait through more than one traffic signal to get through an intersection. There's no gridlock. Most of the major roads aren't even that busy. There's not even backups in most of the city. It just works. It's because their road network is very well thought out and implemented.
The problem with Atlanta and traffic is that the roads simply are not good enough. You cannot support a metro of nearly six million people with two-lane roads...that merge into more two-lane roads. Transit helps a little. It does not help a lot. Fact remains: our road network is simply not capable and never will be due to NIMBYism and poor planning. Not because we don't have enough miles of road to support the population, but because those miles are mostly narrow two-lane winding roads. I mean FFS, this is pretty much THE (only) major route between west Cobb and Buckhead. Moore's Mill pumps through 15,000 vehicles per day, more than Piedmont and 10th Street in town. Close to Juniper. And it's a tiny two-lane road. Dumb.
And being local to their job is well down the list of priorities. Its the house, the price of the house, schools, crime. People do want a reasonable commute, but Forsyth would still be a tiny rural county if being close to jobs was the top priority.
Forsyth is just above a ton of good jobs in Alpharetta, and Perimeter Center may be a congested cluster but it's within reasonable reach as well.
They're not booming in a vacuum.
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