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Glad to have some local politicians bringing some sensibility into this thing! Hopefully they win out, but state and federal officials who want there name on a big project will likely win out.
There is also a pretty massive Collector/Distributor system that will parallel each Freeway for several miles. I was out on Glenridge recently, and was shocked at how wide they are making 285. It looks like they are doubling the size of it.
Its extremely extensive. Last time I saw it in December the work was only concentrated between Ashford Dunwoody and Roswell Rd but I will be passing through there again in aprox 2 weekends from now. I honestly didn't think they had enough room to do what they are doing to this sector of the interstate when this was initially proposed.
Like primaltech noted there are alot of highway projects slated for that area... the HOT lanes have been for some time proposed around the entire metro but this area seems to be getting the most focus on them. I feel they are doing this in order to cater to N.Fulton's employment sector. I know for a certainty asside from the safety issue that the redesign of this interchange was also mainly catered toward that region. They seem extremely and unusually ambitious about it as well... I dont think these projects are so much about resolving traffic as much as satisfying an agenda for certain politicians. I understand the funds and the means they were collecting them were planned long before construction but then they also pretty much annihilated MARTA rail and any chance of it continuing not only with the freeway but also the funding.
GA-400 and I-285 will eventually re-fill to capacity but I think instead of transit, the metro is going to end up focusing on concentrated denser live/work/shop communities much like seen at Avalon, like concentrated miniature downtown's (much like what downtown Alpharetta is becoming) as their answer to commuting, problem is...it wont be cheap. Commuters who cant afford to live in those spots will either be stuck in the GP lanes or paying tolls in the HOT lanes.
Its extremely extensive. Last time I saw it in December the work was only concentrated between Ashford Dunwoody and Roswell Rd but I will be passing through there again in aprox 2 weekends from now. I honestly didn't think they had enough room to do what they are doing to this sector of the interstate when this was initially proposed.
Like primaltech noted there are alot of highway projects slated for that area... the HOT lanes have been for some time proposed around the entire metro but this area seems to be getting the most focus on them. I feel they are doing this in order to cater to N.Fulton's employment sector. I know for a certainty asside from the safety issue that the redesign of this interchange was also mainly catered toward that region. They seem extremely and unusually ambitious about it as well... I dont think these projects are so much about resolving traffic as much as satisfying an agenda for certain politicians. I understand the funds and the means they were collecting them were planned long before construction but then they also pretty much annihilated MARTA rail and any chance of it continuing not only with the freeway but also the funding.
GA-400 and I-285 will eventually re-fill to capacity but I think instead of transit, the metro is going to end up focusing on concentrated denser live/work/shop communities much like seen at Avalon, like concentrated miniature downtown's (much like what downtown Alpharetta is becoming) as their answer to commuting, problem is...it wont be cheap. Commuters who cant afford to live in those spots will either be stuck in the GP lanes or paying tolls in the HOT lanes.
I agree, on all points. I think a lot of it is the Perimeter Center influence. It's our largest office market, and is booming despite the already bad traffic. It has really become more dense as well, lots of new urban style apartments are everywhere and there are multiple highrises going up. I think the employment number is above 200,000 now. It needs rail across the Top End and an extension of the Red Line to Windward Pkwy. I don't believe that's a totally done deal either, but I'm too tired to get into that right now.
I'll bet 40% of the project is accommodating connections with proposed express lanes along both highways.
That's why the price is so high for one interchange.
400/285 project will not add any managed lane connections, but I'm sure they planned and made room for footings of bridges that will hold up the lanes.
Thats indeed what they are doing, however it requires redesigning the entire interchange to achieve what you noted:
-- GA-400 South is elevated over I-285 and there is not enough room from the exit ramp to climb over the southbound lanes. They can only go under it, which is what it currently does - hence why you can only merge into the LEFT lanes of GA-400 north as you are grade level with them after crossing under GA-400 south. You would have to climb 2 interchange levels in 1/16th of a mile to achieve this.
-- GA-400 North passes UNDER the I-285 overpass and the GA-400 North to I-285 West ramp exits on the right, curving in a loop, taking a significant amount of space - this also in the way.
-- Because of the above: The ramp would have to climb over both of these entities, of which at by this point will be so high that it would not be able to merge into GA-400 in time before the I-285 W to GA-400 N ramp. It would either have to merge into the GA-400 N ramps which will cause the ramps curve to be significantly modified, possibly even pushing it out of ROW, or completely overpass the ramps, of which it may not even be able to meet GA-400 before the Hammond Drive overpass.
What you're suggesting requires a partial stack at the very minimum due to the loop around ramps, the awkward partial elevated / partial submerged GA-400 crossing over I-285 (which will also be redesigned, GA-400 will fully overpass I-285 on both NB and SB lanes), and the grade merges into GA-400 north and south.
Typically, interchanges between two major freeways are designed from the start, when new flyovers are added, those flyovers were actually incorporated into the original design but never built either due to funding or lack of vehicular necessity. In this case, we are adding ramps that were never incorporated into the design of this interchange, it isn't exactly as easy as throwing up ramps and bridges - interstate standards, grading, and merge tapers, vehicular safety and so forth also have to be taken into account, in the end, its much safer to completely redesign than make modifications of that magnitude.
If you started my proposed ramp further back, say, around Glenridge Connector or further, there'd be enough space to clear the 285E-to-400S ramp and the 400S main lanes. And then just make the flyover sufficiently high up, bringing it down all the way where Hammond Drive is. Plenty of space to go under there anyway with that fairly new bridge. You'd have about the distance from the middle of Spaghetti Junction to Northcrest, and that ramp descends to the ground well before Northcrest.
Also. I still don't see the plan maps for the 285 express lanes on GADOT's website like they have the 400 express lanes. Can anybody find them?
It may still be too early but not sure.
Unfortunately this is all I can find: I285TopEnd - which I'm sure you saw.
Through browsing their site I also learned they are going to be beginning the West side and East side as apart of this project beginning in 2022 and 2023 -- so its not just the Top End - which would explain why the HOT projects are going to cost so much.
nuh-uh, they won't be building the toll lane connections until the I-285 toll lanes are constructed in 2023. The GA-400 lanes will be constructed in 2022. Those connections are not factored into this bill but will be an addition to.
The reason its so expensive is because:
-- they have to work around existing lanes without shutting certain nodes down as to interrupt traffic as least as possible.
-- they have to completely redesign the ENTIRE interchange
-- they also have to completely remove the existing set of flyovers, bridges and ramps
-- I-285 will no longer cross over GA-400 NB lanes from above, that section will have to be made grade-level.
-- entirely new flyovers and ramps will have to be reconstructed
-- an entirely new overpass for GA-400 over I-285 will also need to be constructed.
-- Access roads for Ashford Dunwoody and Roswell RD are also being constructed in this project.
-- Roswell Rd is also being converted into a Diverging Diamond if I'm not mistaken.
-- Access roads for GA-400 are also being constructed if I'm not mistaken
It costs so much because they have to work around an existing interchange, systematically demolish it, and reconstruct a new interchange in its place all while obtaining additional ROW for certain nodes. While it is only one interchange, its in one of the busiest sectors of the city with limited room and a huge scope of work.
All I meant was that the shape and overall plan for the interchange has to leave room for smooth connection/Ramos to the I-295 express lanes which have been planned foe over 5 years.
I read about the metro wide express system many years ago.
Not sure if this is still coming but they showed plans to convert not 1 but 2 lanes in each direction of the downtown connector to HOT lanes.
The $1 billion price for the 285/ 400 rebuild is another reason why you don’t hinge the entire metro’s mobility upon a single hub and spoke layout because the reality is that fender Bender’s will continue bringing 1/4 of all traffic to a halt.
Interestingly, the traditional flyovers are becoming less common due to rising costs. Many states are instead opting to build less dramatic but much cheaper turbine interchanges which require more space and the ramps to the intersecting highway are suppported with earth as much as possible and just regular overpasses get one highway over another. They are
building a whopper for Raleigh’s outer loop where it meets 3 other limited-access highways.
I agree, on all points. I think a lot of it is the Perimeter Center influence. It's our largest office market, and is booming despite the already bad traffic. It has really become more dense as well, lots of new urban style apartments are everywhere and there are multiple highrises going up. I think the employment number is above 200,000 now. It needs rail across the Top End and an extension of the Red Line to Windward Pkwy. I don't believe that's a totally done deal either, but I'm too tired to get into that right now.
I don’t think GDOT is hustling for any specific reason like pleasing voters or politician primarily.
These tolled express lanes get a sigh of relief from state officials because some of the cost is offset, and this is all they’re going to do presumably forever.
The reason is that they can’t see beyond the existing right of way for new roads to be located.
Then when Dwal got the gas tax raised 10 cents per gallon, suddenly there was substantial money available to
GDOT cruises along the path of least resistance.get these projects started.
People slowly taking to the I-85 lanes to the point where too many were using them and had to be offered gifts to use them less had to be seen as a sign of success
ALL OF THE ABOVE ENCOURAGED THEM TO CONTiNUE UNCHANGED.
L
You know a local news stay ok should do is go ask the surrounding states what they think of our plans that will have to get us through the next 50 years.
I’ll bet they’d say alternate routes need to be designated and modified to supplement our system
All I meant was that the shape and overall plan for the interchange has to leave room for smooth connection/Ramos to the I-295 express lanes which have been planned foe over 5 years.
I read about the metro wide express system many years ago.
Not sure if this is still coming but they showed plans to convert not 1 but 2 lanes in each direction of the downtown connector to HOT lanes.
The $1 billion price for the 285/ 400 rebuild is another reason why you don’t hinge the entire metro’s mobility upon a single hub and spoke layout because the reality is that fender Bender’s will continue bringing 1/4 of all traffic to a halt.
Interestingly, the traditional flyovers are becoming less common due to rising costs. Many states are instead opting to build less dramatic but much cheaper turbine interchanges which require more space and the ramps to the intersecting highway are suppported with earth as much as possible and just regular overpasses get one highway over another. They are
building a whopper for Raleigh’s outer loop where it meets 3 other limited-access highways.
Flyovers are definitely expensive but there are other reasons many states do not use them in excess as well. Flyovers have a huge weakness in the winter in places where snow and ice is prudent. They are harder to plow / clear and freeze MUCH easier making them dangerous links in those circumstances. This is why they are so rare in the northern states and seen typically in the southern states. The problem with turbines is they take up alot of space. Stacks do as well but in instances can be condensed closer to hotspot between the two highways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
I don’t think GDOT is hustling for any specific reason like pleasing voters or politician primarily.
These tolled express lanes get a sigh of relief from state officials because some of the cost is offset, and this is all they’re going to do presumably forever.
The reason is that they can’t see beyond the existing right of way for new roads to be located.
Then when Dwal got the gas tax raised 10 cents per gallon, suddenly there was substantial money available to
GDOT cruises along the path of least resistance.get these projects started.
People slowly taking to the I-85 lanes to the point where too many were using them and had to be offered gifts to use them less had to be seen as a sign of success
ALL OF THE ABOVE ENCOURAGED THEM TO CONTiNUE UNCHANGED.
L
You know a local news stay ok should do is go ask the surrounding states what they think of our plans that will have to get us through the next 50 years.
I’ll bet they’d say alternate routes need to be designated and modified to supplement our system
I believe they are definitely hustling as they are building over 40 miles of HOT lanes beginning approximately 3 years from now when they have been fairly silent about road construction in the metro for decades prior. On top of this they seem to be fairly silent on the actual plans on where the lanes are going to go, which properties may be annexed and are seemingly not very open to public opinion on the matter as they know the plan is very unpopular.
Reason I feel its an agenda is because:
-- I-20 has been neglected for decades, infact no attempts to install HOV / HOT or widen it has occured since the Olympics.
-- The entire project is only focused on the northern arc where the primary business sectors reside
-- At nearly the same time they also seemingly dealt a fatal blow to both the Red and Orange MARTA rail lines
-- In the end, they are still toll lanes and will improve mobility very little unless you're willing to pay.
-- The reconstruction of the GA-400 / I-285 interchange .. while is needed - is far from the only interchange in the metro that is in need of improvements (I-20 / I-285W and Stone Mountain Freeway also needs them) -- yet this sector is the only sector in the spot light followed by nearly doubling I-285 and GA-400 in size.. which is something GA would typically never consider after the massive backlashes they get from highway construction in the metro.
A real solution would be a redundant network of infrastructure (impractical) as well as expanding rail services which has been long neglected and have been fighting to see light in potential expansions for a long time. (practical but severely neglected)
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