New lanes on I-285 top-end to cost $11B+. Enough to build 55 miles of MARTA rail. (Atlanta: sales, transporting)

[samiwas1]

Originally Posted by aus10

This right here is the only answer. The only answer to Atlanta's traffic problem is getting the through traffic out of Atlanta. While I can appreciate the extra miles tacked on to MARTA eliminating the trucks, tourists, and Florida/northbound general traffic from the connector and the perimeter would go a long way towards helping. The only way out for Atlanta's traffic is starting to seriously think about a Houston like outer loop with LIMITED access points.

I agree. And like many other discussions, I find the arguments about "outsiders coming into our city" to be pretty useless when those same people don't want to build any alternative to keep those "outsiders" outside of the city. The entirety of Georgia through traffic has to come to at least 285 or through the city. Don't want that? Build an alternative!

MARTA expansion will be great for some in-town people and a few park and ride commuters. But I doubt it would substantially decrease traffic in town.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

I agree. And like many other discussions, I find the arguments about "outsiders coming into our city" to be pretty useless when those same people don't want to build any alternative to keep those "outsiders" outside of the city. The entirety of Georgia through traffic has to come to at least 285 or through the city. Don't want that? Build an alternative!

MARTA expansion will be great for some in-town people and a few park and ride commuters. But I doubt it would substantially decrease traffic in town.

It still gives people another option as opposed to simply having to rely on the automobile.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by samiwas1

I agree. And like many other discussions, I find the arguments about "outsiders coming into our city" to be pretty useless when those same people don't want to build any alternative to keep those "outsiders" outside of the city. The entirety of Georgia through traffic has to come to at least 285 or through the city. Don't want that? Build an alternative!

MARTA expansion will be great for some in-town people and a few park and ride commuters. But I doubt it would substantially decrease traffic in town.

Every MARTA rider, is a vehicle not in the way of the "outsiders." That's why I get so worked up about the "I don't use MARTA so why should I pay for it!?" arguments I hear. YOU DO [not you personally] use MARTA even if you're not on it. Let's say an HRT line to Gwinnett Place would have a daily ridership of 40,000 (what the red line extension was showing). That's really about 20,000 people each way. Let's say fully half of them carpool which is a huge number, that's still 10,000 vehicles not on I-85 each day. That's huge!

[brownhornet]

Originally Posted by citidata18

But it would at least give a lot more people an alternative to getting around besides sitting in traffic.

This. I know no one is to blame for counties like Cobb but themselves, well, the people that lived in Cobb back in the day that wanted to keep the minorities out...but I know someone that lives in Marietta (due to cost of her apartment and not wanting to live in a slum) and works in college park. The only feasible way to get there on public transportation takes HOURS due to all of the bus exchanges and transfers. If only it were as simple as catching a train from cumberland to college park train station and catching one bus from there it would save heer at least an hour in wasted time riding, standing and waiting on buses. Hell i'd most likely do the same to keep from having to sit in traffic on 285 going to and coming home from work.

[bryantm3]

55 miles of rail? that's more than enough to build out from the arts center station up to cumberland, and build rail stations all along the perimeter over to the doraville station. you can have a mix of neighborhood stations and stations designed for park and ride.


i also want to point out that we need more freight rail funding too. the lines are over capacity and building more freight rail could take many of those shipping containers off I-285.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

55 miles of rail? that's more than enough to build out from the arts center station up to cumberland, and build rail stations all along the perimeter over to the doraville station. you can have a mix of neighborhood stations and stations designed for park and ride.


i also want to point out that we need more freight rail funding too. the lines are over capacity and building more freight rail could take many of those shipping containers off I-285.

Not really.

Freight Rail and Trucking work differently. Freight rail by todays standards is only good for freight that can be stored for some time or is not in IMMEDIATE demand. Trucking comes into play when goods and services are needed IMMEDIATELY. Most goods that are delivered by trucks have already been filtered out of the spectrum of putting them on the rail, therefore; they are not loaded onto trucks because rail is over capacity, or is too expensive, but instead because trucking is far more direct and economically time conservative in comparison.

Lastly, even if we did manage to put everything on a railroad, the final mile will still need to be accomplished by trucks.

Originally Posted by MattCW

Every MARTA rider, is a vehicle not in the way of the "outsiders." That's why I get so worked up about the "I don't use MARTA so why should I pay for it!?" arguments I hear. YOU DO [not you personally] use MARTA even if you're not on it. Let's say an HRT line to Gwinnett Place would have a daily ridership of 40,000 (what the red line extension was showing). That's really about 20,000 people each way. Let's say fully half of them carpool which is a huge number, that's still 10,000 vehicles not on I-85 each day. That's huge!

Truth is in the reality of America however, subsidized transit is overall a failure in comparison to other parts of the world such as Japan and Europe. Dates all the way back to the street car systems which were privately owned but eventually could not guarantee reliable commutes thus they failed and eventually were bought up by governments. America currently has a mindset that subsidized transit is catered toward the lower income, unreliable means of travel and subsidized transit simply has difficulty shaking that vibe off therefor - the entities who own the transit cannot realistically forsee expanding service for questionable usage as they would not be able to cover operating costs...

To solve this, transit costs REALLY need to be fully employed over the users therefore the demand for it can truly reflect in its expansion and true operating costs can be employed in such a mean to make transit more viable than driving for anyone willing to pay for it.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

Not really.

Freight Rail and Trucking work differently. Freight rail by todays standards is only good for freight that can be stored for some time or is not in IMMEDIATE demand. Trucking comes into play when goods and services are needed IMMEDIATELY. Most goods that are delivered by trucks have already been filtered out of the spectrum of putting them on the rail, therefore; they are not loaded onto trucks because rail is over capacity, or is too expensive, but instead because trucking is far more direct and economically time conservative in comparison.

Lastly, even if we did manage to put everything on a railroad, the final mile will still need to be accomplished by trucks.

you are right, that's the current state of affairs. but it hasn't always been that way; rail used to be the primary way goods were shipped across the country.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

you are right, that's the current state of affairs. but it hasn't always been that way; rail used to be the primary way goods were shipped across the country.

Yes, until the Interstate came about and was directed into major cities by the chambers of commerce. Also however, the world and time of the era of the railroad is much different than today's world where time is considered a resource and a very valuable one at that. Most industries would never be able to meet the demands of consumers in today's world if everything was railroaded. Trucks just have too much of a logistical advantage over trains unless we are talking large bulk orders.

[MattCW]

The primary reason trucks have most of their advantages over trains is artificial. The railroads are selling off smaller lines left and right, or downgrading them, so it does become slower to ship by rail. But that doesn't have to be the case. Particularly after the latest round of CSX and NS shenanigans, I've started thinking that the Staggers act was a mistake. Maybe not a complete mistake, but the railroads have been allowed to pretty much do as they please and we as a country are being hurt as a result. There should have been a middle ground.

[aus10]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

you are right, that's the current state of affairs. but it hasn't always been that way; rail used to be the primary way goods were shipped across the country.

What so many people also fail to realize, is that right now the fight for environmental awareness is going to push our railroads to the limit. Truck traffic will increase exponentially. If, the environmental movement continues to shut down oil and gas pipeline production (and while yes we need to be concerned with the environment and that is a discussion for another forum) what folks don't realize is that to move the same amount of product as we now have the railroads will need to TRIPLE capacity just for energy movement alone. Thus...trucking will move back to the primary for all other goods. Can Atlanta handle MORE truck traffic as more and more energy is taking the rail space?