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Old 01-25-2020, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,927 posts, read 2,674,199 times
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After 20 years, a well-explained proposal for new highways that bypass the metro altogether or a persuasive argument for a Northern arc might get a totally different response from today's citizens....
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Old 01-25-2020, 07:31 PM
 
6,695 posts, read 6,310,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
After 20 years, a well-explained proposal for new highways that bypass the metro altogether or a persuasive argument for a Northern arc might get a totally different response from today's citizens....
I potentially maybe could see a not-so-negative public response to a well-explained proposal for new superhighways that bypass metro Atlanta... Like most notably the proposal to build an Interstate 14 through Middle Georgia from Augusta to Columbus by way of Macon.

(… Although it probably should be noted that the Augusta-Macon-Columbus corridor is a corridor that has had its own problems with opposition to new highway construction (including basically indefeatable opposition to road construction through and near the federally-protected Ocmulgee Mounds National Historical Park area), which seems to have strongly affected the construction of the Augusta-Macon-Columbus Fall Line Freeway over about a roughly quarter-century period from the late 1980's through the early-mid 2010's.)

But seeing as though there is even more residential development and a much higher population in, near and around the area north of Atlanta where the Northern Arc portion of the erstwhile Outer Perimeter was proposed to be built back in the late 1990's and early 2000's, I fear that the "totally different response" to a new proposed Northern Arc (no matter how well-explained and well-intentioned) would be in the form of an even larger and more demonstrative public backlash than much of the metro Atlanta electorate (particularly the North metro Atlanta suburban part of the electorate) had over the proposed road on at least 2 different occasions before.

With so much more development and with so many more people living north of Atlanta today than when the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc was originally proposed and seriously pursued by Georgia state government back during the Roy Barnes gubernatorial administration (circa 1999-2002), I think that the opposition (and likely backlash) to such a plan to build a superhighway bypass north of Atlanta probably would be even worse than it was about 2 decades ago.

And given how nervous the Republicans who control Georgia state government continue to get about the ongoing demographic changes in Atlanta's fast-changing, increasingly diverse and demographically domineering Northern suburbs, I don't think that Georgia state leaders like Governor Brian Kemp or Lt. Governor Geoff Duncan (who lives in Forsyth County where the Northern Arc was defeated in 2002) are in any mood to pick a massive fight with the Northside metro Atlanta suburban voters who dominate Georgia elections (and the coalition of ITP urban voters, South metro Atlanta suburban voters, and local/state/regional/national environmental groups that more than likely would back up those Northside suburban voters in opposing a new Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter proposal).

After such angry public responses to the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc proposal in the past, I get the feeling that Georgia politicians (starting with a figure like Governor Brian Kemp, etc.) think that backing a new Northern Arc would be politically suicidal, to say the least... And I do not think that many Georgia politicians are motivated to want to experience what the public reaction would be to a new Northern Arc proposal.

I think that the fates of former Governor Roy Barnes and the 2012 T-SPLOST referendum have become major reasons for Georgia politicians to stay away from anything that may be even remotely related to the Northern Arc.
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Old 01-25-2020, 10:34 PM
 
Location: N. Ga
3,782 posts, read 3,527,147 times
Reputation: 2215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
I potentially maybe could see a not-so-negative public response to a well-explained proposal for new superhighways that bypass metro Atlanta... Like most notably the proposal to build an Interstate 14 through Middle Georgia from Augusta to Columbus by way of Macon.

(… Although it probably should be noted that the Augusta-Macon-Columbus corridor is a corridor that has had its own problems with opposition to new highway construction (including basically indefeatable opposition to road construction through and near the federally-protected Ocmulgee Mounds National Historical Park area), which seems to have strongly affected the construction of the Augusta-Macon-Columbus Fall Line Freeway over about a roughly quarter-century period from the late 1980's through the early-mid 2010's.)

But seeing as though there is even more residential development and a much higher population in, near and around the area north of Atlanta where the Northern Arc portion of the erstwhile Outer Perimeter was proposed to be built back in the late 1990's and early 2000's, I fear that the "totally different response" to a new proposed Northern Arc (no matter how well-explained and well-intentioned) would be in the form of an even larger and more demonstrative public backlash than much of the metro Atlanta electorate (particularly the North metro Atlanta suburban part of the electorate) had over the proposed road on at least 2 different occasions before.

With so much more development and with so many more people living north of Atlanta today than when the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc was originally proposed and seriously pursued by Georgia state government back during the Roy Barnes gubernatorial administration (circa 1999-2002), I think that the opposition (and likely backlash) to such a plan to build a superhighway bypass north of Atlanta probably would be even worse than it was about 2 decades ago.

And given how nervous the Republicans who control Georgia state government continue to get about the ongoing demographic changes in Atlanta's fast-changing, increasingly diverse and demographically domineering Northern suburbs, I don't think that Georgia state leaders like Governor Brian Kemp or Lt. Governor Geoff Duncan (who lives in Forsyth County where the Northern Arc was defeated in 2002) are in any mood to pick a massive fight with the Northside metro Atlanta suburban voters who dominate Georgia elections (and the coalition of ITP urban voters, South metro Atlanta suburban voters, and local/state/regional/national environmental groups that more than likely would back up those Northside suburban voters in opposing a new Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter proposal).

After such angry public responses to the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc proposal in the past, I get the feeling that Georgia politicians (starting with a figure like Governor Brian Kemp, etc.) think that backing a new Northern Arc would be politically suicidal, to say the least... And I do not think that many Georgia politicians are motivated to want to experience what the public reaction would be to a new Northern Arc proposal.

I think that the fates of former Governor Roy Barnes and the 2012 T-SPLOST referendum have become major reasons for Georgia politicians to stay away from anything that may be even remotely related to the Northern Arc.
Thank you two for the wonderful responses.
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Old 01-26-2020, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Georgia
5,845 posts, read 4,785,813 times
Reputation: 3551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
I potentially maybe could see a not-so-negative public response to a well-explained proposal for new superhighways that bypass metro Atlanta... Like most notably the proposal to build an Interstate 14 through Middle Georgia from Augusta to Columbus by way of Macon.

(… Although it probably should be noted that the Augusta-Macon-Columbus corridor is a corridor that has had its own problems with opposition to new highway construction (including basically indefeatable opposition to road construction through and near the federally-protected Ocmulgee Mounds National Historical Park area), which seems to have strongly affected the construction of the Augusta-Macon-Columbus Fall Line Freeway over about a roughly quarter-century period from the late 1980's through the early-mid 2010's.)

But seeing as though there is even more residential development and a much higher population in, near and around the area north of Atlanta where the Northern Arc portion of the erstwhile Outer Perimeter was proposed to be built back in the late 1990's and early 2000's, I fear that the "totally different response" to a new proposed Northern Arc (no matter how well-explained and well-intentioned) would be in the form of an even larger and more demonstrative public backlash than much of the metro Atlanta electorate (particularly the North metro Atlanta suburban part of the electorate) had over the proposed road on at least 2 different occasions before.

With so much more development and with so many more people living north of Atlanta today than when the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc was originally proposed and seriously pursued by Georgia state government back during the Roy Barnes gubernatorial administration (circa 1999-2002), I think that the opposition (and likely backlash) to such a plan to build a superhighway bypass north of Atlanta probably would be even worse than it was about 2 decades ago.

And given how nervous the Republicans who control Georgia state government continue to get about the ongoing demographic changes in Atlanta's fast-changing, increasingly diverse and demographically domineering Northern suburbs, I don't think that Georgia state leaders like Governor Brian Kemp or Lt. Governor Geoff Duncan (who lives in Forsyth County where the Northern Arc was defeated in 2002) are in any mood to pick a massive fight with the Northside metro Atlanta suburban voters who dominate Georgia elections (and the coalition of ITP urban voters, South metro Atlanta suburban voters, and local/state/regional/national environmental groups that more than likely would back up those Northside suburban voters in opposing a new Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter proposal).

After such angry public responses to the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc proposal in the past, I get the feeling that Georgia politicians (starting with a figure like Governor Brian Kemp, etc.) think that backing a new Northern Arc would be politically suicidal, to say the least... And I do not think that many Georgia politicians are motivated to want to experience what the public reaction would be to a new Northern Arc proposal.

I think that the fates of former Governor Roy Barnes and the 2012 T-SPLOST referendum have become major reasons for Georgia politicians to stay away from anything that may be even remotely related to the Northern Arc.
Do you think there's any potential for extending I-185 north from LaGrange to Calhoun?
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Old 01-26-2020, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,132 posts, read 4,406,055 times
Reputation: 6248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
I potentially maybe could see a not-so-negative public response to a well-explained proposal for new superhighways that bypass metro Atlanta... Like most notably the proposal to build an Interstate 14 through Middle Georgia from Augusta to Columbus by way of Macon.

(… Although it probably should be noted that the Augusta-Macon-Columbus corridor is a corridor that has had its own problems with opposition to new highway construction (including basically indefeatable opposition to road construction through and near the federally-protected Ocmulgee Mounds National Historical Park area), which seems to have strongly affected the construction of the Augusta-Macon-Columbus Fall Line Freeway over about a roughly quarter-century period from the late 1980's through the early-mid 2010's.)

But seeing as though there is even more residential development and a much higher population in, near and around the area north of Atlanta where the Northern Arc portion of the erstwhile Outer Perimeter was proposed to be built back in the late 1990's and early 2000's, I fear that the "totally different response" to a new proposed Northern Arc (no matter how well-explained and well-intentioned) would be in the form of an even larger and more demonstrative public backlash than much of the metro Atlanta electorate (particularly the North metro Atlanta suburban part of the electorate) had over the proposed road on at least 2 different occasions before.

With so much more development and with so many more people living north of Atlanta today than when the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc was originally proposed and seriously pursued by Georgia state government back during the Roy Barnes gubernatorial administration (circa 1999-2002), I think that the opposition (and likely backlash) to such a plan to build a superhighway bypass north of Atlanta probably would be even worse than it was about 2 decades ago.

And given how nervous the Republicans who control Georgia state government continue to get about the ongoing demographic changes in Atlanta's fast-changing, increasingly diverse and demographically domineering Northern suburbs, I don't think that Georgia state leaders like Governor Brian Kemp or Lt. Governor Geoff Duncan (who lives in Forsyth County where the Northern Arc was defeated in 2002) are in any mood to pick a massive fight with the Northside metro Atlanta suburban voters who dominate Georgia elections (and the coalition of ITP urban voters, South metro Atlanta suburban voters, and local/state/regional/national environmental groups that more than likely would back up those Northside suburban voters in opposing a new Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter proposal).

After such angry public responses to the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc proposal in the past, I get the feeling that Georgia politicians (starting with a figure like Governor Brian Kemp, etc.) think that backing a new Northern Arc would be politically suicidal, to say the least... And I do not think that many Georgia politicians are motivated to want to experience what the public reaction would be to a new Northern Arc proposal.

I think that the fates of former Governor Roy Barnes and the 2012 T-SPLOST referendum have become major reasons for Georgia politicians to stay away from anything that may be even remotely related to the Northern Arc.
Spot on B2R, as usual!
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Old 01-26-2020, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,132 posts, read 4,406,055 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth View Post
Do you think there's any potential for extending I-185 north from LaGrange to Calhoun?
Sorry, just saw this after I posted. YES!
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Old 01-26-2020, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,132 posts, read 4,406,055 times
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We need an Outer, Outer Belt at this point. The Northside could be a smaller 6 lane Peahtree Industrial style upgrade with limited frontage roads where existing development is along GA 120. It's in an existing footprint, and would perhaps be the most palatable solution Politically and with the Super NIMBY's.

I'm thinking this road would limit semi traffic to local deliveries.

Thoughts?
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Old 01-26-2020, 09:04 PM
 
6,695 posts, read 6,310,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth View Post
Do you think there's any potential for extending I-185 north from LaGrange to Calhoun?
I do not think that it is completely out of the realm of possibility, especially as traffic continues to worsen on the freeway system in and around metro Atlanta.

But the problem with a proposal to extend I-185 north from LaGrange to Calhoun (and it is a big problem) is that the route would resemble the western leg of a new larger Outer Perimeter bypass highway.

… Which is something that would immediately trigger widespread paranoia and instantly trigger increasingly loud howls of protest from factions across the political and social spectrum that the State of Georgia was trying to resurrect an unpopular superhighway construction proposal that voters had loudly rejected on at least 2 notable occasions in the past.

Because anything that may be even remotely Outer Perimeter-related often (if not always) seems to inspire a negative reaction from the public, there are most often very few, if any, Georgia politicians at any level of government that will agree to back that type (or really any type) of bypass proposal at this point in time.

(… Paranoia about the Outer Perimeter can be especially strong in the 'Golden Triangle' area of suburban development between Interstates 75 Northwest and 85 Northeast north of Atlanta where the Northern Arc portion of the erstwhile Outer Perimeter was extremely unpopular with a population that has a big say in state elections.)

Some other challenges to a future extension of I-185 from LaGrange to Calhoun is that North Atlanta/North Georgia interests (from the area north of Atlanta where the unpopular Northern Arc was defeated in 2002) have a very dominant voice in Georgia politics and that local residents (like in the area west of Atlanta where a LaGrange-to-Calhoun extension of I-185 would be proposed to run) often reject roads that could be or that actually are bypasses of Atlanta on the grounds that they fear that those proposed roads will generate heavy development in areas that want to remain exurban and/or rural.

An apparent inability to advance a meaningful bypass proposal forward in Georgia politics is a major reason why the State of Georgia has already upgraded much of the existing surface route between LaGrange and Calhoun (US-27 and GA-53) to either a divided 4-lane surface highway or a 5-lane surface highway, much of which has been part of the long-running GRIP (Governor's Road Improvement Program).
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Old 01-26-2020, 11:18 PM
 
6,695 posts, read 6,310,135 times
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Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
We need an Outer, Outer Belt at this point. The Northside could be a smaller 6 lane Peahtree Industrial style upgrade with limited frontage roads where existing development is along GA 120. It's in an existing footprint, and would perhaps be the most palatable solution Politically and with the Super NIMBY's.

I'm thinking this road would limit semi traffic to local deliveries.

Thoughts?
I agree with the pressing need for a far-Outer Belt (far-Outer Perimeter) roadway.

Though, attempting to upgrade GA-120 to a Peachtree Industrial Boulevard type of roadway (with about 6-8 express/through lanes in the middle, and about 4-6 local lanes on the outside, or something thereabouts) probably would encounter much opposition because the GA-120 route runs through some pretty affluent (and extremely politically powerful) areas in Cobb and North Fulton counties.

… Areas where development (including residential development) is often located very close to a GA-120 roadway and right-of-way that many locals in the affluent and politically powerful areas that the road runs through (like East Cobb and West Cobb) like to think of as a semi-scenic suburban boulevard (with many tree-lined sections) like is the case throughout many parts of the Atlanta suburbs.

But the idea of upgrading Northside surface arterial roads (like GA-120, etc.) to handle growing volumes of traffic is a really good one.

A good alternative to the pursuit of a Peachtree Industrial Boulevard-style upgrade (which GDOT has gotten much flack for from businesses along the stretch of PIB that was turned into a freeway) potentially might be to rebuild some of the busiest at-grade intersections (along roads like GA-92, State Bridge Road/Pleasant Hill Road, the aforementioned GA-120 through Cobb, etc.) into multiple-level grade-separated intersections (with through lanes tunneled below-grade/underground) that require no widening of roadways and no expansion of public right-of-way.

I know that metro Atlanta needs much more additional roadway infrastructure than that, especially for through and bypass traffic (including interstate vacation and truck traffic), but the unusual reality is that the Atlanta region is one of the more difficult metro areas in the nation in which to build new roads (particularly superhighways).

That is largely because much of the Atlanta region (including much of metro Atlanta north of/above I-20, and the West metro Atlanta suburbs and the West Georgia exurbs of Atlanta) regards itself as being part of and/or very strongly emotionally connected to the larger Blue Ridge/Appalachian foothills region that is a very important scenic/geographical/topographical/cultural/social feature north of the city.

Many North Georgia residents (including in the North Atlanta suburbs) regard themselves as living a highly-cherished foothills-type of suburban/exurban/rural lifestyle...and they regard almost any major road expansion proposal (including and particularly superhighway construction) as being a mortal threat to the existence of that highly-cherished suburban/exurban/rural lifestyle... Which is why building new suburban, exurban and rural superhighways (like the kind that have been built in other large Sun Belt states like Florida, North Carolina and Texas) seems to be so much more difficult in metro Atlanta and North Georgia than it has been in other major Sun Belt regions.
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Old 01-27-2020, 06:56 AM
 
5,406 posts, read 2,141,344 times
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Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
These lanes can be controlled will tolls rates which will always prevent them from filling up & grinding to a halt like general purpose lanes.

This control will extend their usefulness of 45 mph+ travel for decades to come so that they will always function as designed.

They will fulfill their mission of giving us one other option besides being at the mercy of the crowds and backups that lower the quality of life now in Atlanta.

They are able to provide a predictable travel time and constant 45mph+ speeds by raising prices until enough people are dissuaded from using them at peak times.

They don't help the overall under-capacity of our road network for a soon-to-be 8 million residents plus the tens of thousands Southeast out-of-staters passing through each day.

And they are ruining what little natural beauty our freeway corridors had (my biggest concern)…

But because they won't fill up and mire down like all lanes eventually do....

I think we are better off with them than without....

At this point, Atlanta is pretty-much doomed to the forces/effects we experience now.

These lanes are smarter than just adding more free lanes.
It will still fail to solve congestion.

Texas for example - Many of their Toll Roads have 75 - 85 MPH speed limits and they were intentfully designed this way to entice drivers to pay to use them, however when reliable speeds begin to fall below these limits, they increase the tolls making it so only those who can afford to use them are entitled to these high speeds. What you're not seeing is, the grand majority of commuters will NOT fit that entitlement. Many are paying upward $200 per month in tolls just to commute.

Here is what will really happen:

The toll lanes will become cap-less and increase to absurdly high amounts to retain reliable speeds. Unfortunately reliable speeds will be the only thing they will retain - the grand amount of commuter traffic will be forced to continue to use the congested GP lanes while the toll lanes become for the lack of better words, Lexus Lanes. meanwhile the grand majority of commuters will probably only be able to afford to use them twice a week at BEST.

Thats not solving ANYTHING, Thats just entitling certain classes of commuters to reliable commute times while the GP lanes continue to fill up.

Mass Transit will be much more in line with providing EVERYONE a means of by-passing traffic.

That plus those elevated lanes will absolutely trash anything aesthetic in terms of scenery around I-285. There is no need to build these lanes when Atlanta metro has plenty of rail lines extending to its suburbs that could be converted to commuter rail for practically the same dollar.
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