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Old 02-14-2020, 07:27 PM
 
5,386 posts, read 2,137,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattCW View Post
Why would it sprawl? Just having capacity and exits doesn't mean people will actually go up that way. That's just like the arguments on here where people insist adding one lane to I-85 to South Carolina will result in some kind of explosive population boom.
I too have to agree that the Northern Arc would heavily sprawl if it were conceived and especially if it had exits every 2 miles.

Infrastructure 'alone' does not (entirely) induce demand. I look at it more like a multiplier in desirability. In areas that are already undesirable in terms of commuting such as I-85N beyond Gwinnett CO to a major job hub or Downtown Atlanta where the expansion and widening is mainly to help interstate and inter-regional / freight traffic, the widening does not necessarily make it much easier to see Atlanta's metro as a viable commute to employment hubs thus people will still choose to live much closer to the metro before moving way up to Brastleton or Commerce. Its like multiplying 1*1 ...you still get 1 in the end.

However

In areas that ARE deemed desirable, close to employment, and urban amenities as well as recreation, it quantomly increases desirability and demand because it provides feasibility and reachability to areas that were otherwise desirable but unreachable. Now you're multiplying quantiful numbers, and get exponential results.

For the Northern Arc, you have to realize it would be sitting on the crest of a heavily sought after recreational, natural and desirable location where many amenities such as jobs (N.Fulton, N.Cobb and to an extent even N.Gwinnett), recreation (The Foot Hills, Lake Lanier), Interstate connectivity (I-75, I-575, GA400, I-985, I-85, GA-316, and now even Sugarloaf Pkwy Ext). That area would EXPLODE in development, you would hardly recognize it in a decade. It would have attracted more employment and logistical operations because of the connections it had to just about every interstate in the metro, then it would have attracted touristic operations near the foot hills causing Canton, Cumming, Dahlonega and Buford to swell. It's not just because its a highway, its because its a highway that services a HEAVILY sought after area... and with the growth Atlanta is incurring many would crave to live near or on the foot hills... It would quickly become suburban / urban.

That plus they had developments planned along its route before the highway was even built just to give an idea as to how much it would have sprawled.

It sucks but they did the right thing by canceling it, although it lead to a large cataclysm of alter-effects in terms of shattering inter-regional connectivity, however; it wouldn't have remained a by-pass for very long but rather another congested urban artery. If it were conceived today it would probably already need to be 3 lanes each way.

The only way it could ever work is if it were a tolled bypass with strict zone controlling and development ordinances as well as limited exits, if you want it to be a true bypass, making exits for local traffic nearby it would be like tripping over your own feet in that regard.

If Atlanta wants to preserve its nature (note that while you guys see this stuff every day and live in it, it might not take much presidence in your daily lives or is overlooked, you have to remember Atlanta's nature is VERY unique in terms of major cities its size, there arent many major cities like it and gives it a huge presidency over other major metros)... it needs to become more innovative in terms of transportation than just highways. Efficient and reachable Mass Transit is going to be a MUST for Atlanta as it continues to grow.

Last edited by Need4Camaro; 02-14-2020 at 07:39 PM..
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Old 02-15-2020, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,923 posts, read 2,672,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
Which was its intent from the get go. Any B.S. from GDOT about it being a true bypass was utter crap the moment they decided to have non-freeway exits. Had it been built, it would've been I-285 2.0.
It should be clear what a highway's purpose is:

1) It's either for the two of the Eastern US's most important interstates (I-75 and I-85) to traverse the Southeastern states and without mixing with Atlanta's local traffic...

2) or having limited access to the local traffic....

3) or it's to be shared by both like I-285 is now.

It's not like building roads is inherently evil, serving only questionable interests.

I couldn't care less if developers receive a windfall of cash. The bottom line is that America's soon to be 8th largest metro needs a certain amount of efficient, functioning and connective roads as part of an overall mobility system.

Granted, GDOT and questionable power players in Georgia still cannot right Georgia's ship, which is why we suffer from world-renowned traffic congestion.

I'll never understand, with all of our mobility problems, why people's attitudes here towards new roads and better connectivity are so different from people in other states who rejoice upon announcements of improvement projects.

This year in Wake County, NC (Raleigh) a few highway projects commence to the tune of $4 billion just in that one county: 2 additional lanes in each direction for I-40, the next to last section of tolled 540 outer loop, final, remaining, 1960's-era section of Raleigh's Beltline (called that since the 1960s) gets rebuilt bigger, and US 70 get another lane in each direction.


All except one of those will converge on what will be NC's most complex interchange in SE Wake County. Potentially it could have looked dramatic similar to Spaghetti Junction, but they have opted to make it a turbine interchange which stay on the ground as much as possible. See below image.


Sometimes, having a progressive DOT like NC has can backfire when they implement new technologies that fail.

Their use of a new blend of concrete on I-40 about 10 years ago result in about a $50 million redo near Durham and Chapel Hill.

And using a new method for the foundation under I-40 through Raleigh back in the 1980's ultimately started to fail after 30 years, hence the Fortify Project which just wrapped up after 5 years. They had to completely tear out and rebuild I-40 through Raleigh while keeping at least 2 lanes open to traffic.

interchange by Stephen Edwards, on Flickr
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,109 posts, read 4,399,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
I couldn't care less if developers receive a windfall of cash. The bottom line is that America's soon to be 8th largest metro needs a certain amount of efficient, functioning and connective roads as part of an overall mobility system.
Well, the large majority of people in the Metro area do care though. Destroying the foothills with sprawl is simply a no go, so the State needs to figure out alternatives. If that means spending Billions on rail, so be it.

Quote:
I'll never understand, with all of our mobility problems, why people's attitudes here towards new roads and better connectivity are so different from people in other states who rejoice upon announcements of improvement projects.
Because most of these other states aren't dealing with anything remotely similar to the land we have to our north. This areas beauty is treasured, and people are not willing to sacrifice it to almost guaranteed sprawl - increased mobility or not.

Quote:
All except one of those will converge on what will be NC's most complex interchange in SE Wake County. Potentially it could have looked dramatic similar to Spaghetti Junction, but they have opted to make it a turbine interchange which stay on the ground as much as possible. See below image.
That interchange is ridiculous, and takes up an excessive amount of land. A stack would have been much better. I wonder how many people were displaced for this.

If this is an example of the much touted 'progressiveness' of NCDOT, no thanks.
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:47 PM
 
5,386 posts, read 2,137,070 times
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They probably went that route because it seems to converge 3 highways rather than 2 as a typical stack would, meaning multi levels of flyovers would have been necessary if they chose to stack it (flyovers are very expensive) .. it would have looked similar to what their plan in for Spaghetti Junction and the HOT lanes.

As for The Northern ARC. Its DOA unless there is also strict zone and development controlled around its corridor rather than it being routed through every politicians development making it a development engine hence completely annihilating any service as a bypass. The road is needed but careful not to just go throwing up concrete. If it's not planned properly it wouldnt be much (if at all) better than no road at all.

States like NC and Texas while do face political backlash, do not incur the same environmental, political, and regional effects as the Blue Ridge faces. If the road were built in TX or NC and it became congested, they could much easier widen it or build an alternate road... if it became congested in Atlanta it would literally doom the politician who proposed it and good luck getting it widened or another route made. It's just not the region where that can easily happen. The best answer is for high capacity means of moving more people bypassing congested arteries within a region where road infrastructure is held tightly on a leash.

Last edited by Need4Camaro; 02-15-2020 at 08:56 PM..
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:42 AM
 
6,695 posts, read 6,308,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
As for The Northern ARC. Its DOA unless there is also strict zone and development controlled around its corridor rather than it being routed through every politicians development making it a development engine hence completely annihilating any service as a bypass. The road is needed but careful not to just go throwing up concrete. If it's not planned properly it wouldnt be much (if at all) better than no road at all.
The Northern Arc is not just DOA unless there are strict zoning and development controls placed on it.

The Northern Arc is DOA, period.

While the Northern Arc understandably lives on in online forums like these, in reality, few, if any, Georgia politicians will dare even mention the term "Northern Arc" in public for fear of the angry response that they are likely to receive from their constituents.

When the state unsuccessfully tried to make a hard push for the construction of the road back in the late '90's and early '00's, they presented the type of plan to limit new development along the road and to limit exits on the road only to other intersecting superhighways that you are speaking of.

But not only did the plan get no traction, but the plan also seemed to generate an even angrier response from the public because of the huge land development interests that were backing the road, and because multiple members of Governor Barnes administration got caught engaging in land speculation in locations along the road where additional exits would go.

After that, the public became convinced that GDOT and the Barnes administration were lying about their intent to keep development and exits along the road to a minimum, and the modest amount of support that there might have been for road dropped even further.

There just seems to be no way to get around the widespread public perception that the Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter concept is nothing more than one great big land speculation project for well-connected real estate and land developers... Well-connected real estate and land developers who had already for decades been openly talking of sparking a land speculation and development rush in the foothills and ranges of the Blue Ridge region north of Atlanta.

And factor in that the affluent residents of the powerful upscale North Atlanta suburbs and exurbs seem to have even stronger and more powerful political connections than the real estate developers that pushed for the construction of the Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc, most likely (if not most assuredly) means that the road is likely to remain dead after officially being cancelled 17 years ago.
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Old 02-16-2020, 01:57 AM
 
6,695 posts, read 6,308,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77 View Post
I'll never understand, with all of our mobility problems, why people's attitudes here towards new roads and better connectivity are so different from people in other states who rejoice upon announcements of improvement projects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl View Post
Because most of these other states aren't dealing with anything remotely similar to the land we have to our north. This areas beauty is treasured, and people are not willing to sacrifice it to almost guaranteed sprawl - increased mobility or not.
To add to what JMatl said about how the presence of the scenic foothills, ranges and wilderness areas of the Blue Ridge region affects public attitudes about large-scale construction and development projects in the Atlanta region, including and particularly north of I-20...

… Another significant factor that affects the public's attitudes about large-scale road construction projects in the Atlanta region, is that at the time that the State of Georgia was making a hard push to construct the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc in the late 1990's and early 2000's, the Atlanta region was on the receiving end of a massive amount of biting criticism about the way that the region was growing.

The fact that the Atlanta region was being recognized as one of the fastest-growing settlements in human history during the boom years of the late 1990's attracted much criticism.

Criticism of Atlanta's ultra low-density development patterns during a time of explosive growth during the post-Olympics population and development boom of the late 1990's was particularly intense and biting from Northeastern establishment circles where Atlanta became known as "the poster child for sprawl" by many academics, domestic and international urban planning and development experts, and the Northeastern establishment media.

That is including and especially from The New York Times, which seemingly teamed with the hometown Atlanta Journal-Constitution to run a series of infamous articles that had the effect of basically shaming Atlanta for its very low-density growth patterns during the late 1990's and very early 2000's.

One New York Times article in particular in November 1999 even mentioned the opening of the then-brand-spanking-new Mall of Georgia earlier that year and its location next to the right-of-way of the then-proposed Outer Perimeter as one of the prime examples of Atlanta's infamous sprawling ways.

In part because of the intense biting and withering criticism that Atlantans have received from their Northeastern and international peers during the post-Olympic era, Atlantans at times can be and have been extremely sensitive about the issue of sprawl.

That very intense criticism that Atlanta was receiving for its sprawling development patterns from the Northeastern and international media and academic establishments at the time, seemed to have played a leading role in the public's intense pushback against and eventual defeat of the Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc.

(Atlanta basically became the 'whipping boy' of the Sun Belt when it came to Northeastern and international establishment admonishments of the Sun Belt for what were deemed to be the region's inefficient growth and development patterns.)

Metro Atlantans (particularly OTP suburbanites) seemed to be very sensitive about the criticism they were receiving from Northeastern and International quarters about the Atlanta region's sprawling development patterns.

And the optics to the international community of Georgia's state government pushing for a new exurban loop highway that would generate much sprawl at the behest of real estate developers when the Atlanta region was already receiving a very heavy amount of criticism for fostering sprawl and a maximum automobile-dependent lifestyle most likely did not sit too well with a significant majority of metro Atlantans… A significant majority who were uncomfortable with both the large new road construction project and the region's growing infamous reputation for being the international poster child of sprawl and pollution.

(… Atlanta's degenerating air quality and the region's diminishing ability to receive federal road construction funds because of that degenerating air quality also appeared to have played a very significant role in the eventual defeat of the Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc.)
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:22 AM
bu2
 
13,418 posts, read 7,792,238 times
Reputation: 5985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
I too have to agree that the Northern Arc would heavily sprawl if it were conceived and especially if it had exits every 2 miles.

Infrastructure 'alone' does not (entirely) induce demand. I look at it more like a multiplier in desirability. In areas that are already undesirable in terms of commuting such as I-85N beyond Gwinnett CO to a major job hub or Downtown Atlanta where the expansion and widening is mainly to help interstate and inter-regional / freight traffic, the widening does not necessarily make it much easier to see Atlanta's metro as a viable commute to employment hubs thus people will still choose to live much closer to the metro before moving way up to Brastleton or Commerce. Its like multiplying 1*1 ...you still get 1 in the end.

However

In areas that ARE deemed desirable, close to employment, and urban amenities as well as recreation, it quantomly increases desirability and demand because it provides feasibility and reachability to areas that were otherwise desirable but unreachable. Now you're multiplying quantiful numbers, and get exponential results.

For the Northern Arc, you have to realize it would be sitting on the crest of a heavily sought after recreational, natural and desirable location where many amenities such as jobs (N.Fulton, N.Cobb and to an extent even N.Gwinnett), recreation (The Foot Hills, Lake Lanier), Interstate connectivity (I-75, I-575, GA400, I-985, I-85, GA-316, and now even Sugarloaf Pkwy Ext). That area would EXPLODE in development, you would hardly recognize it in a decade. It would have attracted more employment and logistical operations because of the connections it had to just about every interstate in the metro, then it would have attracted touristic operations near the foot hills causing Canton, Cumming, Dahlonega and Buford to swell. It's not just because its a highway, its because its a highway that services a HEAVILY sought after area... and with the growth Atlanta is incurring many would crave to live near or on the foot hills... It would quickly become suburban / urban.

That plus they had developments planned along its route before the highway was even built just to give an idea as to how much it would have sprawled.

It sucks but they did the right thing by canceling it, although it lead to a large cataclysm of alter-effects in terms of shattering inter-regional connectivity, however; it wouldn't have remained a by-pass for very long but rather another congested urban artery. If it were conceived today it would probably already need to be 3 lanes each way.

The only way it could ever work is if it were a tolled bypass with strict zone controlling and development ordinances as well as limited exits, if you want it to be a true bypass, making exits for local traffic nearby it would be like tripping over your own feet in that regard.

If Atlanta wants to preserve its nature (note that while you guys see this stuff every day and live in it, it might not take much presidence in your daily lives or is overlooked, you have to remember Atlanta's nature is VERY unique in terms of major cities its size, there arent many major cities like it and gives it a huge presidency over other major metros)... it needs to become more innovative in terms of transportation than just highways. Efficient and reachable Mass Transit is going to be a MUST for Atlanta as it continues to grow.
This area already IS exploding. Forsyth is the fastest growing county in the area.

What is going to happen is more jobs will move out to areas like Alpharetta and the metro will become even more difficult to serve with mass transit.
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:28 AM
bu2
 
13,418 posts, read 7,792,238 times
Reputation: 5985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
They probably went that route because it seems to converge 3 highways rather than 2 as a typical stack would, meaning multi levels of flyovers would have been necessary if they chose to stack it (flyovers are very expensive) .. it would have looked similar to what their plan in for Spaghetti Junction and the HOT lanes.

As for The Northern ARC. Its DOA unless there is also strict zone and development controlled around its corridor rather than it being routed through every politicians development making it a development engine hence completely annihilating any service as a bypass. The road is needed but careful not to just go throwing up concrete. If it's not planned properly it wouldnt be much (if at all) better than no road at all.

States like NC and Texas while do face political backlash, do not incur the same environmental, political, and regional effects as the Blue Ridge faces. If the road were built in TX or NC and it became congested, they could much easier widen it or build an alternate road... if it became congested in Atlanta it would literally doom the politician who proposed it and good luck getting it widened or another route made. It's just not the region where that can easily happen. The best answer is for high capacity means of moving more people bypassing congested arteries within a region where road infrastructure is held tightly on a leash.
That's just an excuse. North Carolina has similar topography.

I never understood Jimmy Carter and his "limits" mentality until I moved to Georgia. Georgia has a "can't do" attitude, especially in the government sphere. Its always about why something can't be done instead of trying to solve the problem. Or its about how to make the most money for friends and family of any possible solution.

Billy Payne must have been really extraordinary to generate the energy to get the Olympics to Atlanta.
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Old 02-16-2020, 02:27 PM
 
5,386 posts, read 2,137,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
The Northern Arc is not just DOA unless there are strict zoning and development controls placed on it.

The Northern Arc is DOA, period.

While the Northern Arc understandably lives on in online forums like these, in reality, few, if any, Georgia politicians will dare even mention the term "Northern Arc" in public for fear of the angry response that they are likely to receive from their constituents.

When the state unsuccessfully tried to make a hard push for the construction of the road back in the late '90's and early '00's, they presented the type of plan to limit new development along the road and to limit exits on the road only to other intersecting superhighways that you are speaking of.

But not only did the plan get no traction, but the plan also seemed to generate an even angrier response from the public because of the huge land development interests that were backing the road, and because multiple members of Governor Barnes administration got caught engaging in land speculation in locations along the road where additional exits would go.

After that, the public became convinced that GDOT and the Barnes administration were lying about their intent to keep development and exits along the road to a minimum, and the modest amount of support that there might have been for road dropped even further.

There just seems to be no way to get around the widespread public perception that the Northern Arc/Outer Perimeter concept is nothing more than one great big land speculation project for well-connected real estate and land developers... Well-connected real estate and land developers who had already for decades been openly talking of sparking a land speculation and development rush in the foothills and ranges of the Blue Ridge region north of Atlanta.

And factor in that the affluent residents of the powerful upscale North Atlanta suburbs and exurbs seem to have even stronger and more powerful political connections than the real estate developers that pushed for the construction of the Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc, most likely (if not most assuredly) means that the road is likely to remain dead after officially being cancelled 17 years ago.
I was speaking more so in terms of capacity - if it were conceived it would likely already see congestion pushing the need to expand it or widen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
This area already IS exploding. Forsyth is the fastest growing county in the area.

What is going to happen is more jobs will move out to areas like Alpharetta and the metro will become even more difficult to serve with mass transit.
Yes, you are correct to say that the area is definitely expanding but a highway in that area would be like adding fuel to the fire rather than water to cool the traffic. It would make it much more convenient that many more operations than even today would see it as a feasible and highly desirable location to develop upon then you will see unprescedent growth and explosion. Frisco can get away with it because they have far more unprotected develop-able land North of Frisco than Atlanta does north of Forsyth.

The current trend seems as though many are moving into the Downtown area although I have no doubt Alpharetta is incurring much job growth. Alpharetta specifically could still be served by MARTA rail, its within a linear trajectory of the red line, literally follow GA-400 up and no longer do you have to depend on GA-400 but you now also have a viable commute means. Neighboring suburbs would best be served by BRT / ART with traffic signal priority giving them the ability to also skip traffic. I'm just basically stating at this point I'm looking for a way around driving altogether. Its unsustainable for massive population growth ESPECIALLY in a region that is heavily known to be very anti-road and suburban outliers have to deal with extensive automotive commutes that become realized on every highway / road designed. I'm not saying that roads shouldn't be a priority, but they definitely shouldn't be the only priority.

Job hubs (unlike residences) typically only establish in areas that are feasible to commute to or reach, that or have other operational logistical advantage. This is why most of the employment in Alpharetta is basically right off of GA-400. They aren't going to up and design campuses out in Rural North Atlanta without feasible means of accessing them, which in the silver lining may also help push them toward Downtown Atlanta...densification which I think is largely what the metro wants / needs rather than them sprouting up everywhere they can in efforts to conserve as much nature / forestry in N.Atlanta as possible. Putting an outer perimeter up would connect major arteries to feasible land giving employment hubs the ability to utilize the corridor to conduct operations.

Residences are typically more flexible as the masses are generally more willing to commute to save money on a home, thus the further away from the interstate generally the less expensive your home is thus they will push much further away from a highway than a corporate center will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
That's just an excuse. North Carolina has similar topography.

I never understood Jimmy Carter and his "limits" mentality until I moved to Georgia. Georgia has a "can't do" attitude, especially in the government sphere. Its always about why something can't be done instead of trying to solve the problem. Or its about how to make the most money for friends and family of any possible solution.

Billy Payne must have been really extraordinary to generate the energy to get the Olympics to Atlanta.

Im not 100% sure what I feel on the whole matter as I know there are cities with highways near the mountains but I do know one thing is 100% certain, you have a better chance of squeezing a camel through a pinhole than you have of getting that road built. given how recessive Atlanta's history has been on road building even on necessary corridors. Its not all negative either...its extraordinarily inconvenient but some areas have been deeply preserved due to it. My way of looking at it is like this, if they aren't going to build the roads then give us an alternative to them... You're trying to beat on a brick wall with your fists on something that is already set and concrete and regardless of how you feel about it, makes no difference... I'm looking for ways around the wall. The difference between yourself and I is I have come to accept that and am willing to select alternatives. Even with the inception of 8 million people, Atlanta is likely not going to change that. They haven't in the past for its current population which was double what they originally predicted... I would much rather see Atlanta design means of moving masses of people rapidly while bypasses congested arteries in efforts to conserve reliable commutes even if it means you may have to give up some flexibility... its just one of the things that comes with living in that region, and its not bad...its just different than what you're used to.

Last edited by Need4Camaro; 02-16-2020 at 02:40 PM..
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Old 02-16-2020, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,109 posts, read 4,399,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
That's just an excuse. North Carolina has similar topography.
Yes they do, but what they don't have is a major Metro bumping up against that similar topography. Apples and oranges.

Quote:
I never understood Jimmy Carter and his "limits" mentality until I moved to Georgia. Georgia has a "can't do" attitude, especially in the government sphere. Its always about why something can't be done instead of trying to solve the problem.
What does this even mean? Is this some sort of anti-Democratic Texan code-speak? You are aware that Jimmy Carter is responsible for the massive Freeing the Feeways project in the 80's? You can thank him for rebuilding 75, 85 the Connector and 20 on the Eastside ITP.

Quote:
Or its about how to make the most money for friends and family of any possible solution.
Really? As if where you're from doesn't have this baked into their Political DNA.

Quote:
Billy Payne must have been really extraordinary to generate the energy to get the Olympics to Atlanta.
Andrew Young is responsible for the legwork that landed the Games by cobbling together Global support for Atlanta, Billy Payne took that win and ran with it.
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