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Old 02-21-2020, 10:42 AM
bu2
 
13,418 posts, read 7,792,238 times
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Need4-

I went to college in Austin. Austin had that no build mentality throughout the 70s and 80s. It has resulted in the worst traffic in Texas and probably far and away the worst traffic for any city its size in the country. Houston Metro's slogan for approving their rail was, "What if we didn't build it and they came anyway?" That is what happened in Austin as they filled those hills west of Austin and moved East towards Pflugerville and Elgin. Even in green liberal Austin, they figured out they needed to build. That is what has happened in Atlanta. People may figure it out here.

In Dallas, Plano was a hick town in the 70s and Frisco was a general store at the intersection of two highways. What happened was all those jobs moved to Plano starting with EDS and everything north of Dallas has boomed. Downtown Dallas really hasn't done very well relative to the rest of the metro. The nation's largest light rail system hasn't changed that. If they didn't build roads to Plano, jobs would move further north to Allen.

If not for Georgia State and Georgia Tech, downtown Atlanta might be struggling. More and more jobs are spreading out as it gets more difficult to get downtown. Mass transit simply doesn't work for everyone. And it generally only works well in cities with mass concentrations of jobs. One writer suggests 250k jobs downtown is the magic number.

So if we ignore roads, it encourages job sprawl. Then we can't serve the metro well with any mass transit. And the worst case is that jobs start to leave the metro. Probably more because of cost than traffic, but that is happening in New York and Los Angeles and Chicago.

If we try to tell people how to live, they will live elsewhere.
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:02 AM
 
Location: North Atlanta
5,871 posts, read 4,302,188 times
Reputation: 3389
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
So if we ignore roads, it encourages job sprawl. Then we can't serve the metro well with any mass transit.
So you mean to tell me that same job sprawl in Cumberland, Perimeter Center, and Windward would've existed had GDOT not constructed the Interstates and GA 400?

The sprawl screws over transit by encouraging development to be car-centric (which is what happened in the three aformentioned areas.
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Georgia
5,845 posts, read 4,785,112 times
Reputation: 3551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
Which is why people wishing for the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc are deluding themselves at this point. There is virtually zero chance that those original proposals will ever see the light of day.
Original proposals, of course not. But if they ever do build an outer perimeter, it would have to be much farther away from Atlanta. I could see future I-14 between Columbus and Macon as the south bypass, I-185 or I-67 between LaGrange and Adairsville as the west bypass, and an interstate from Macon to north of Athens as the east bypass. Perhaps nothing for the north bypass...yet.
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:35 PM
 
5,386 posts, read 2,137,070 times
Reputation: 4153
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Need4-

I went to college in Austin. Austin had that no build mentality throughout the 70s and 80s. It has resulted in the worst traffic in Texas and probably far and away the worst traffic for any city its size in the country. Houston Metro's slogan for approving their rail was, "What if we didn't build it and they came anyway?" That is what happened in Austin as they filled those hills west of Austin and moved East towards Pflugerville and Elgin. Even in green liberal Austin, they figured out they needed to build. That is what has happened in Atlanta. People may figure it out here.

In Dallas, Plano was a hick town in the 70s and Frisco was a general store at the intersection of two highways. What happened was all those jobs moved to Plano starting with EDS and everything north of Dallas has boomed. Downtown Dallas really hasn't done very well relative to the rest of the metro. The nation's largest light rail system hasn't changed that. If they didn't build roads to Plano, jobs would move further north to Allen.

If not for Georgia State and Georgia Tech, downtown Atlanta might be struggling. More and more jobs are spreading out as it gets more difficult to get downtown. Mass transit simply doesn't work for everyone. And it generally only works well in cities with mass concentrations of jobs. One writer suggests 250k jobs downtown is the magic number.

So if we ignore roads, it encourages job sprawl. Then we can't serve the metro well with any mass transit. And the worst case is that jobs start to leave the metro. Probably more because of cost than traffic, but that is happening in New York and Los Angeles and Chicago.

If we try to tell people how to live, they will live elsewhere.
While Austin is currently tearing up roads and building toll-roads, they are also heavily trying to shift into a transit orientated metro: https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...wntown-subway/ - on top of this they are also trying to pass CodeNEXT4 which will rezone literally the entire city to SF3 thru SF5 making it possible for SFH owners to reconstruct their lot to multifamily units (although many neighborhoods in Austin are also heavily revolting this.) Austin atleast see's that density and transit diversity is going to be needed in the future as they continue to incur population growth while running out of more and more develop-able land.

Austin honestly reminds me of Atlanta in some attributes, infact I would actually say Austin in some ways is more comparable to Atlanta than DFW is. Mainly in the aspect that it has limited room to develop roads without facing massive backlash, although Austin's case was slightly different than Atlanta's in the aspect that Central Texas in general is very anti-growth and they try to do whatever they can to stop it. They actually did succeed in stopping it in other areas, such as extending 130 to DFW (130 was supposed to continue North of Georgetown as an alternate to I-35 and remeet I-35 just south of DFW to bypass Waco and Temple.) It was shot down by farmers to such a decree that Texans even posted signs on their property warning site surveyors that they would be shot on site if they stepped foot onto their property. It was pretty serious stuff.

One thing that should be noted, Austin's main bypass (130) travels EAST of Austin, away from the highly desirable Hill Country area as well as the Colorado River, its on flat empty prairie land where there are far less environmental impacts. Infact because of such it also causes a logistical issue ... it does not provide anything close to a direct route to San Antonio. This is also why it has an 85 MPH speed limit, in a way to coax drivers to pay to use it over taking I-35. The real direct route would have cut straight through Hill Country, and you can look on a map even today despite all the numerous toll-roads Austin has built, there are NONE there and it is a pretty heavily developed area. TX 45 on both (north and south) ends with half built interchanges signifying they intended to extend it toward Hill Country, but they couldn't...and despite Austin's growth trajectory its heavily unlikely that area will be services by a major tollway.

Another thing... While I applaud the construction of TollRoads, lets not pretend that they are practical for the average driver to use every day. They are priced to provide reliable SPEEDS, they are not built to provide commuters a way to get to work everyday. When tollroads become congested, they lose money because maintenance increases and ridership drops off (noone pays for a road that doesn't provide reliable speeds) For me to commute from Leander (suburb) to Domain area (work) It costs me $200 per month in just TOLLS, thats literally 15 miles one way. Add ontop of that the swelling costs of housing (which will also increase in Atlanta as more land is developed upon and land becomes more scarcer) vehicle repair and fuel prices, and driving quickly becomes less and less desirable. For the record, I take the train to work... That not only saves me $300 per month (as I can omit tolls as well as gasoline) but it in many cases gets me to work faster than sitting in traffic. I purposefully purchased in Leander because it was close to a rail stop, as is my job..and I would very much like to see more developments as well as jobs sprawl near rapid transit than urban roads.

By focusing only on roads we are literally paving the way to a unsustainable future and if there was ever a change to shift that, now is the time.
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Old 02-21-2020, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Georgia
5,845 posts, read 4,785,112 times
Reputation: 3551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
While Austin is currently tearing up roads and building toll-roads, they are also heavily trying to shift into a transit orientated metro: https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...wntown-subway/ - on top of this they are also trying to pass CodeNEXT4 which will rezone literally the entire city to SF3 thru SF5 making it possible for SFH owners to reconstruct their lot to multifamily units (although many neighborhoods in Austin are also heavily revolting this.) Austin atleast see's that density and transit diversity is going to be needed in the future as they continue to incur population growth while running out of more and more develop-able land.

Austin honestly reminds me of Atlanta in some attributes, infact I would actually say Austin in some ways is more comparable to Atlanta than DFW is. Mainly in the aspect that it has limited room to develop roads without facing massive backlash, although Austin's case was slightly different than Atlanta's in the aspect that Central Texas in general is very anti-growth and they try to do whatever they can to stop it. They actually did succeed in stopping it in other areas, such as extending 130 to DFW (130 was supposed to continue North of Georgetown as an alternate to I-35 and remeet I-35 just south of DFW to bypass Waco and Temple.) It was shot down by farmers to such a decree that Texans even posted signs on their property warning site surveyors that they would be shot on site if they stepped foot onto their property. It was pretty serious stuff.

One thing that should be noted, Austin's main bypass (130) travels EAST of Austin, away from the highly desirable Hill Country area as well as the Colorado River, its on flat empty prairie land where there are far less environmental impacts. Infact because of such it also causes a logistical issue ... it does not provide anything close to a direct route to San Antonio. This is also why it has an 85 MPH speed limit, in a way to coax drivers to pay to use it over taking I-35. The real direct route would have cut straight through Hill Country, and you can look on a map even today despite all the numerous toll-roads Austin has built, there are NONE there and it is a pretty heavily developed area. TX 45 on both (north and south) ends with half built interchanges signifying they intended to extend it toward Hill Country, but they couldn't...and despite Austin's growth trajectory its heavily unlikely that area will be services by a major tollway.

Another thing... While I applaud the construction of TollRoads, lets not pretend that they are practical for the average driver to use every day. They are priced to provide reliable SPEEDS, they are not built to provide commuters a way to get to work everyday. When tollroads become congested, they lose money because maintenance increases and ridership drops off (noone pays for a road that doesn't provide reliable speeds) For me to commute from Leander (suburb) to Domain area (work) It costs me $200 per month in just TOLLS, thats literally 15 miles one way. Add ontop of that the swelling costs of housing (which will also increase in Atlanta as more land is developed upon and land becomes more scarcer) vehicle repair and fuel prices, and driving quickly becomes less and less desirable. For the record, I take the train to work... That not only saves me $300 per month (as I can omit tolls as well as gasoline) but it in many cases gets me to work faster than sitting in traffic. I purposefully purchased in Leander because it was close to a rail stop, as is my job..and I would very much like to see more developments as well as jobs sprawl near rapid transit than urban roads.

By focusing only on roads we are literally paving the way to a unsustainable future and if there was ever a change to shift that, now is the time.
Is Austin ever going to build more than one light rail line?
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:03 PM
 
5,386 posts, read 2,137,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth View Post
Is Austin ever going to build more than one light rail line?
Technically it's a commuter rail as it is a diesel locomotive with stations spread out fairly decently and certain stations only operate during commuter hours.

It's hard to say though. Most of the naysayers spawn from the fact that the cost to build it versus local impact is too low, most residents wouldnt be directly affected by expansions and do not want to pay taxes on it while still driving to work. They did propose other lines, to Pfugerville and Hutto but those also end up shot down when put in the ballot. The current proposal does however include true light rail along with subway but many locals are a bit stiff on the matter and would rather see I-35 and other highways get upgrades.

On the other side the City of Austin proper is heavily trying to push transit in whatever form they can and even acquired engineers to help from Seattle, Boston, ect.

I'd say it has about a 40% pass to 60% not pass chance right now.

The thing Austin like many major car-orientated cities dont realize (or do but dont want to wait for) is that transit expansion especially because the cost doesnt happen overnight. You dont end up with a whole complete functional system. It takes time and is built over a long period of segment after segment where as many dont want to wait for that.

Austin in ways like Atlanta is at the crossroads of a shift. It's becoming very expensive to live in Austin proper and those living in suburban areas are dealing with extensive commutes as well as tolls yet there is no sight in the cease of growth and they cant plan quickly enough for it... they are trying to push density and transit to bring people closer to the core and closer to their jobs while keeping the CoL fairly affordable for the masses. If it doesnt then it will basically become San Francisco 2.0

Last edited by Need4Camaro; 02-21-2020 at 07:20 PM..
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:36 PM
 
6,695 posts, read 6,308,107 times
Reputation: 4684
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Need4-

I went to college in Austin. Austin had that no build mentality throughout the 70s and 80s. It has resulted in the worst traffic in Texas and probably far and away the worst traffic for any city its size in the country. Houston Metro's slogan for approving their rail was, "What if we didn't build it and they came anyway?" That is what happened in Austin as they filled those hills west of Austin and moved East towards Pflugerville and Elgin. Even in green liberal Austin, they figured out they needed to build. That is what has happened in Atlanta. People may figure it out here.
I think that metro Atlantans and North Georgians have already figured out that they need to build additional transportation infrastructure.

It is just that the problem for the supporters of the construction of an Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc is that many metro Atlantans and North Georgians do not seem to want that needed additional transportation infrastructure (including and especially additional superhighway infrastructure) built anywhere remotely near where they live.

… That is especially if they feel that additional transportation infrastructure will disturb and/or severely alter and/or destroy the urban, suburban, exurban and/or rural North Georgia Blue Ridge/Piedmont foothills lifestyle that so many metro Atlantans and North Georgians seem to treasure so much.

Metro Atlantans and North Georgians do seem willing to accept the construction of additional transportation infrastructure as needed.

Metro Atlantans and North Georgians just do not seem to be willing to accept the widespread severe alteration and/or destruction of their residential communities and their highly treasured Blue Ridge/Piedmont foothills influenced urban, suburban, exurban and rural lifestyles to accommodate the construction of that needed additional transportation infrastructure.

And since metro Atlantans and North Georgians have let their feelings be known on this issue on multiple occasions, Georgia state government should be willing to work within the parameters that voters have set on the issue by expanding transportation infrastructure in ways that do not require the severe disturbance of nature areas and displacement of large numbers of existing residences and businesses.

… Ways like the State of Georgia taking the multiple billions of dollars that it is willing to spend on building elevated express toll lanes and was willing to spend on a new Outer Perimeter superhighway and instead spending it on other forms of transportation infrastructure like new and expanded transit (where applicable), conversions of existing busy at-grade intersections into grade-separated intersections, and the expansion of I-285 underground (like how I-635 was expanded underground across the north side of Dallas) to completely minimize (if not eliminate) the disturbance of existing residences, businesses and neighborhoods along the I-285 right-of-way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
In Dallas, Plano was a hick town in the 70s and Frisco was a general store at the intersection of two highways. What happened was all those jobs moved to Plano starting with EDS and everything north of Dallas has boomed. Downtown Dallas really hasn't done very well relative to the rest of the metro. The nation's largest light rail system hasn't changed that. If they didn't build roads to Plano, jobs would move further north to Allen.

If not for Georgia State and Georgia Tech, downtown Atlanta might be struggling. More and more jobs are spreading out as it gets more difficult to get downtown. Mass transit simply doesn't work for everyone. And it generally only works well in cities with mass concentrations of jobs. One writer suggests 250k jobs downtown is the magic number.

So if we ignore roads, it encourages job sprawl. Then we can't serve the metro well with any mass transit. And the worst case is that jobs start to leave the metro. Probably more because of cost than traffic, but that is happening in New York and Los Angeles and Chicago.

If we try to tell people how to live, they will live elsewhere.
That is a really good point that Downtown/Central Atlanta might be struggling if not for growth-generating institutions like Georgia State University and Georgia Tech.

But Georgia State and Georgia Tech (along with other growth generators like Piedmont Park, Emory University, the CDC, U.S. Federal government facilities, Georgia state government facilities, Hartsfield-Jackson Airport, Tyler Perry Studios, the Atlanta University Center, the Beltline, Mercedes-Benz Stadium, State Farm Arena, the CNN Center, the Georgia World Congress Center, the Georgia Aquarium, the World of Coca-Cola, Fernbank Museum, Fernbank Science Center, the Carter Center complex, the King Center complex, etc.) do exist ITP, do generate a massive amount of growth and economic activity ITP, and have to be accounted for as part of the conversation about Atlanta's ongoing transportation challenges.

And though there undeniably are challenges and difficulties in commuting into job centers in the urban core from outlying suburban areas in a large major metro area/region like Atlanta, difficulties commuting into the urban core are not the only, or even the main motivation for the spreading out of jobs along and outside of the I-285 Perimeter in the Atlanta region.

Businesses/corporations/employers locate where they do according to their specific needs.

Some businesses (like many of those aforementioned ITP) locate in a higher-density urban environment because they determine that a higher-density urban environment best fits their needs.

While other businesses (particularly those that need sprawling buildings on sprawling plots of land like manufacturing/processing plants, warehousing, logistical operations, etc.) may elect to locate in a lower-density suburban/exurban/rural environment because that is the kind of land setup that their business needs to be able to operate.

Some businesses have determined that they need to be located in areas of higher job density in the urban core to operate and thrive, while other businesses and industries need to spread out in lower-density ATP/OTP suburban, exurban and rural areas to operate and thrive.

That is a good point that mass transit does not work for everyone. But mass transit can and would work for a lot more people if expansions are thoughtfully targeted to be implemented in the right corridors to work in tandem with thoughtful upgrades and expansions of the road network that honor the repeatedly expressed wishes of voters to avoid large-scale disruptions of existing residences, businesses and neighborhoods.
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Old 02-22-2020, 12:51 PM
bu2
 
13,418 posts, read 7,792,238 times
Reputation: 5985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
While Austin is currently tearing up roads and building toll-roads, they are also heavily trying to shift into a transit orientated metro: https://www.kxan.com/news/local/aust...wntown-subway/ - on top of this they are also trying to pass CodeNEXT4 which will rezone literally the entire city to SF3 thru SF5 making it possible for SFH owners to reconstruct their lot to multifamily units (although many neighborhoods in Austin are also heavily revolting this.) Austin atleast see's that density and transit diversity is going to be needed in the future as they continue to incur population growth while running out of more and more develop-able land.

Austin honestly reminds me of Atlanta in some attributes, infact I would actually say Austin in some ways is more comparable to Atlanta than DFW is. Mainly in the aspect that it has limited room to develop roads without facing massive backlash, although Austin's case was slightly different than Atlanta's in the aspect that Central Texas in general is very anti-growth and they try to do whatever they can to stop it. They actually did succeed in stopping it in other areas, such as extending 130 to DFW (130 was supposed to continue North of Georgetown as an alternate to I-35 and remeet I-35 just south of DFW to bypass Waco and Temple.) It was shot down by farmers to such a decree that Texans even posted signs on their property warning site surveyors that they would be shot on site if they stepped foot onto their property. It was pretty serious stuff.

One thing that should be noted, Austin's main bypass (130) travels EAST of Austin, away from the highly desirable Hill Country area as well as the Colorado River, its on flat empty prairie land where there are far less environmental impacts. Infact because of such it also causes a logistical issue ... it does not provide anything close to a direct route to San Antonio. This is also why it has an 85 MPH speed limit, in a way to coax drivers to pay to use it over taking I-35. The real direct route would have cut straight through Hill Country, and you can look on a map even today despite all the numerous toll-roads Austin has built, there are NONE there and it is a pretty heavily developed area. TX 45 on both (north and south) ends with half built interchanges signifying they intended to extend it toward Hill Country, but they couldn't...and despite Austin's growth trajectory its heavily unlikely that area will be services by a major tollway.

Another thing... While I applaud the construction of TollRoads, lets not pretend that they are practical for the average driver to use every day. They are priced to provide reliable SPEEDS, they are not built to provide commuters a way to get to work everyday. When tollroads become congested, they lose money because maintenance increases and ridership drops off (noone pays for a road that doesn't provide reliable speeds) For me to commute from Leander (suburb) to Domain area (work) It costs me $200 per month in just TOLLS, thats literally 15 miles one way. Add ontop of that the swelling costs of housing (which will also increase in Atlanta as more land is developed upon and land becomes more scarcer) vehicle repair and fuel prices, and driving quickly becomes less and less desirable. For the record, I take the train to work... That not only saves me $300 per month (as I can omit tolls as well as gasoline) but it in many cases gets me to work faster than sitting in traffic. I purposefully purchased in Leander because it was close to a rail stop, as is my job..and I would very much like to see more developments as well as jobs sprawl near rapid transit than urban roads.

By focusing only on roads we are literally paving the way to a unsustainable future and if there was ever a change to shift that, now is the time.
I'm making these points to show that cities do change their minds:

East Austin was considered environmentally sensitive as well as west Austin. There plan was to have all development north/south along two highways, Mo-Pac and I-35. After working on nothing but the MoPac freeway for decades, Austin converted 183N into a freeway to the northwest. They converted 290 W to a freeway from I-35 west into the Hill Country. Then the started the toll roads. 130 running parallel to I-35 through what was once considered environmentally sensitive East Austin, 290 E to the northeast, 45N in the fast developing north and 45S providing roads for West Austin. They are converting 71E to freeway east of I-35 to 130. And they have other plans for extending 290W in the hill country and 183 to the south and north. They didn't build it and people went to environmentally sensitive East and West Austin anyway. So when plans don't work the way you intend, leaders need to come up with new plans and solutions and try to sell them.
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Old 02-24-2020, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,923 posts, read 2,672,440 times
Reputation: 3058
Atlanta is what it is, and it became what it is from a long history of not much regulation or oversight.

It has always offered one thing: to be the opposite of the rest of the South, the anti-rural, true big city with s big city mentality.

Lots of people still come here because they like to be where all the action is, full of energy, amenities and a fast pace.

So as long as some people are experiencing that after relocating here, they'll put up with the hassles from a city that burgeoned without oversight or guidance. Perhaps that's Atlanta's secret sauce which made the city wild and exciting compared to the rest of the South.

No one will ever be guiding the region as a whole with an overall view of the big picture.

Just look at the Atlanta Regional Commission which formed so late in the game that no one respects them or anything they have to say.

I think all of us can theorize about how and why things are like they are, but the truth is that no one every looks for the big picture of the region as a whole and identifies what's missing, and what's needed compared to other US cities.

Cars, driving and low-density suburban-style development can be enjoyed and continued forever in smaller metros.

They are only problematic here where we've allowed everyone to come & build whatever/wherever they want without any guidance. from city/state.planners.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,923 posts, read 2,672,440 times
Reputation: 3058
I just received a newsletter from GDOT, and unfortunately...

ONLY 720 CITIZENS ATTENDED I-285 EXPRESS LANES (TOP END SECTION) OPEN HOUSE!

Out of the 3 million or so who live somewhat adjacent to the area.

So Georgians get whatever they're served, and rightly so.

People don't get involved here, and that's part of the reason for the rampant corruption and ****-poor pavement conditions on city streets.

I've never figured out the reason. Is everyone living such exciting lives here in Atlanta that they aren't aware of the problems?

Only 720 people out of a metro of 7 million is paltry, given that so much of Atlanta's landscape and appeal is about to be altered in such a major way...
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