North Fulton taking aim at tech, health-care worker shortages (Atlanta: attorneys, job market)

[ATLTJL]

So.... we all agree this article is full of garbage and there is no real shortage, only employer unwillingness to pay competitive wages and/or help develop talent themselves.

[citidata18]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

So.... we all agree this article is full of garbage and there is no real shortage, only employer unwillingness to pay competitive wages and/or help develop talent themselves.

That sounds about right to me. And it's not just an Atlanta problem.

[NorthAtlanta]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

What do you suppose the problem is?

I know Atlanta tries to sell itself as the Silicon Valley of the south (along with every other southern city) and often cite GA Tech as a source of qualified talent. I assume UGA also has a half-way decent computer program.

I've long said nobody ever said, "Wow, I just graduated top of my class at Ga Tech. Can't wait to go work in Atlanta's fintech scene!" My guess is good GA Tech grads go out to fun and sexy companies like Google, YouTube, Apple, etc. But that's just a hunch as an outsider. Are intown ATL companies having the same problem? Where are all the GA Tech/UGA grads going? Or are there just not enough of them?

Some grads leave for the greener pastures but I suppose the main problem is expectations vs reality. Employers want some one with a BS in Computer Science or Engineering with 3 to 5 years of work experience. Removing the BS degree requirement will open up the same job req to so many other people but they aren't willing to do it. College education is so expensive here in the US, in Asian countries it is heavily subsidized. We recently hired a Chinese national and he mentioned during a lunch meeting that he only paid $700 as tuition for the entire year during his Bachelor of Science. Here in the US one credit hour costs as much. This is a nationwide problem, not an Alpharetta problem. Employers want sky and earth from the employees akin to expecting every girl you date to look like Beyonce or Halle Berry.. The education system is tuned more towards making more and more money and building these huge endowments and unless you are willing to go into 100k+ in student loan debt while working your ass off to cover your living expenses on top of your course work, an average Joe can't get a decent college degree.

[DreamerD]

Originally Posted by LynnHarris1

With a 3% unemployment rate, North Fulton continues to have a tough time filling thousands of jobs, especially in the tech and healthcare field.

Alpharetta has more technology workers than Austin, Texas, according to 2019 data from the Best Places website. About 15 percent of Alpharetta’s workers are in the computer, engineering and science fields, compared to 10 percent for Austin.

Yet on any given day, there are more than 20,000 tech jobs going unfilled in North Fulton, says Julie Haley, CEO and co-founder of Edge Solutions, a technology sales and services firm in Alpharetta.

“We have a hole,” Haley said. She has served on the board of Tech Alpharetta as well as a number of other tech-related organizations in north Fulton. “If you put all of the cities together (in north Fulton), there are over 1,000 tech companies — more than 800 are in Alpharetta proper.”

What’s driving the shortage?

FULL STORY: https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/..._news_headline

SOURCE: Atlanta Business Chronicle

No what it is is that they want to make up an excuse to bring in H1b1 workers and get rid of American workers. Both fields are probably asking for far too much for far too little pay. Both are not wanting to train people. Like I've said before...race to the bottom.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by LynnHarris1

Alpharetta has more technology workers than Austin, Texas, according to 2019 data from the Best Places website. About 15 percent of Alpharetta’s workers are in the computer, engineering and science fields, compared to 10 percent for Austin.

This is flat-out terrible writing and is completely inexcusable. A higher percentage of something is not the same as a higher number of something.

[markjames68]

Originally Posted by DreamerD

No what it is is that they want to make up an excuse to bring in H1b1 workers and get rid of American workers. Both fields are probably asking for far too much for far too little pay. Both are not wanting to train people. Like I've said before...race to the bottom.

Nobody wants to do this as a way of doing business, not if you are looking beyond the next quarter’s results.

I’ve hired hundreds of people over the years including a lot of developers. Unless the job is entirely clear cut the typical Indian or Chinese H-1B won’t get it done as well as most Americans, unless you budget in a lot more American administrative oversight.

There are examples where it’s done - the company outsources a tech function to an Indian Service Provider who then staffs it with Indians. In this case if the Indian company wants to hire 2x as many people each at 1/3 the price that’s their prerogative but again, really only effective with very logical rote tasks.

Small companies can’t do this - they don’t have the infrastructure, ability to provide guidance nor bear the visa expense.

Plus the Visa workers aren’t as cheap as they used to be. I remember 20 years ago when a top programmer in Bangalore made around $9K US. It’s closer to $25K now in India. So that person will need more to work in the US.

And this is coming from someone who was brought twice to the US on H-1B visas.

[VJP]

To answer the Tech question - there's the promised land of opportunity out west for Tech grads who are qualified or close to being FAANG qualified and want to be close to the action. For everyone else there's lots of local opps but the search and desires to live start in-town, midtown/ATV and extend outwards. Small companies doing contract based dev work based in Alpharetta don't get Tech grads looking to work there out of school, nor do they offer competitive pay to get a 5 year post-grad Techie. I've worked in tech in gwinnett and fulton for 15 years. I've interviewed probably 20-30 times, often just to gauge market worth and have noticed an overwhelming 'cheapness'. Too little comp, too many requirements, a lot of attempts at bait and switch.

To clarify, my experience is a generalization of < $25M/annual rev orgs.

[DreamerD]

Originally Posted by markjames68

Nobody wants to do this as a way of doing business, not if you are looking beyond the next quarter’s results.

I’ve hired hundreds of people over the years including a lot of developers. Unless the job is entirely clear cut the typical Indian or Chinese H-1B won’t get it done as well as most Americans, unless you budget in a lot more American administrative oversight.

There are examples where it’s done - the company outsources a tech function to an Indian Service Provider who then staffs it with Indians. In this case if the Indian company wants to hire 2x as many people each at 1/3 the price that’s their prerogative but again, really only effective with very logical rote tasks.

Small companies can’t do this - they don’t have the infrastructure, ability to provide guidance nor bear the visa expense.

Plus the Visa workers aren’t as cheap as they used to be. I remember 20 years ago when a top programmer in Bangalore made around $9K US. It’s closer to $25K now in India. So that person will need more to work in the US.

And this is coming from someone who was brought twice to the US on H-1B visas.

I won't deny your experiences. It's just that I've heard very different. I am glad that today, however (according to you), it's becoming too expensive to insource from certain countries like India as they were the ones who mostly benefited from the said visa.

[markjames68]

Originally Posted by DreamerD

I won't deny your experiences. It's just that I've heard very different. I am glad that today, however (according to you), it's becoming too expensive to insource from certain countries like India as they were the ones who mostly benefited from the said visa.

I never said it was "too expensive". My inference was that it wasn't worth it and there are many costs that smaller companies won't want to bear.

I've run divisions of $4B+ software companies, and ran $25M+ companies outright. This is my business.

I've been to China and to India many times over the past 20 years and I've spoken with/worked with many firms globally including all the Indian Service Providers. I've also experienced L-visas where you do an intracompany transferee (another way around the problem.)

If a company has grunt work programming to be done, and they are big, then yes, it can still be financially feasible to "deal in bulk" with H-1B programmers. But based upon my experience (according to me) you don't want imported Indians doing work that requires a ton of creative latitude. A lot of this has to do with power distance and social hierarchy. It doesn't have anything to do intelligence or desire to work. I've found that once in the US for a number of years Indian workers become Americanized and work just as well with creative challenges.

My experience with Chinese workers is that they are better with creative challenges, but language is a much bigger barrier. The other problem is that they have a tendency to steal intellectual property and use it "back home" themselves. I'm not saying this anecdotally BTW, I have seen it personally happen.

A small company has to open up a position, and then hire attorneys to handle all of the details. They have to post the position publicly (with salary too FYI), ensure no Americans apply, and then handle all of the travel and visa costs which aren't trivial. In order to get a labor certification you also have to prove that no American can do the job (which usually is fairly easy to get around in tech, just make it pretty narrow.) A small company often has a single HR person who has no experience in visa work. Even if they go through the process there's no guarantee the worker will be a "fit" culturally, and you're not going to fly in a bunch for interviews. I've heard of cases where it was done via Skype and technical interviews were faked (people out of view of the camera providing answers, etc.) A lot of risk associated with hiring like this especially when it's more culturally acceptable to "fudge" in order to get ahead.

The other major issue since the days when I got visas was the quota filling up. Back then a quota might NEVER fill up, meaning you could apply in August or September and still get it filled (quotas follow the government calendar starting on October 1st.)

Nowadays the quota fills up in days, meaning once done, you have to wait a year before approaching this again. I believe there's a cap override lottery for another group, but that wouldn't apply to everyone.

Also, as mentioned, there's another away around this which is to hire Wipro, Infosys, etc. and they handle the visas and visa transfers. I believe Disney did something like that when outsourcing their IT group in Orlando. From a company perspective it's generally smarter unless you're very big because if the person doesn't work out you can get another without going through all of the hassle.

So....what have you heard?

[markjames68]

Originally Posted by VJP

To answer the Tech question - there's the promised land of opportunity out west for Tech grads who are qualified or close to being FAANG qualified and want to be close to the action. For everyone else there's lots of local opps but the search and desires to live start in-town, midtown/ATV and extend outwards. Small companies doing contract based dev work based in Alpharetta don't get Tech grads looking to work there out of school, nor do they offer competitive pay to get a 5 year post-grad Techie. I've worked in tech in gwinnett and fulton for 15 years. I've interviewed probably 20-30 times, often just to gauge market worth and have noticed an overwhelming 'cheapness'. Too little comp, too many requirements, a lot of attempts at bait and switch.

To clarify, my experience is a generalization of < $25M/annual rev orgs.

I haven't been in the area as long as you have but my experience concurs with yours.