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Old 09-10-2019, 03:48 PM
bu2
 
23,907 posts, read 14,701,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Atlanta lost over 100,000 people of density in the last 50 years. Do you have any data to show that Buckhead defied that trend? New towers do not equal more density.



Even if we legalized it, no one is trying to throw up towers everywhere ITP. There is not demand for that.

Also, mid-rises are typically better for density. That is mostly what we are trying to legalize in much of the "growth" areas. But in the "conservation" areas duplexes / ADUs / Missing-middle is the highest density.

The narrative of the big bad "tower" next to grandma's cottage is a distraction.
No place in the US is going to become New York City. Other than Singapore, no place in the world is quite like NYC. In 2008, Atlanta had a 99 year supply of high rise condos. They had to auction them off to eat up that supply. Only so many people can afford that type of lifestyle. That is not where any significant density will come from.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Atlanta lost over 100,000 people of density in the last 50 years. Do you have any data to show that Buckhead defied that trend? New towers do not equal more density.



Even if we legalized it, no one is trying to throw up towers everywhere ITP. There is not demand for that.

Also, mid-rises are typically better for density. That is mostly what we are trying to legalize in much of the "growth" areas. But in the "conservation" areas duplexes / ADUs / Missing-middle is the highest density.

The narrative of the big bad "tower" next to grandma's cottage is a distraction.
Are the current residents looking for rezoning to add mid-rises? Are they asking for duplexes and ADUs? I haven't heard any interest in that.

And as far as your statement "new towers do not equal more density" Are you saying those towers are sitting empty? Are you saying there are other ways to add density? Not interested in either option.

And you said show you the data to show that Buckhead hasn't been part of a trend of losing density. I'm not a data scientist, but I've been living in this part of town for 50 years and my family has lived in Buckhead since the 1920s, and it doesn't take a PhD in urban planning to see there are more new condos going up than ones being torn down. Peachtree Rd was lined with SFHs in the 1970s and now it is condos and high rises. Lenox Road area has exploded with multifamily. Lindbergh has become denser as well with multifamily. Young and middle aged families live in the preponderance of SFHs in the area. I don't see houses being torn down for green space or sitting empty. I don't see condos being torn down and replaced with single family homes. Many of our large estates have become clusters of homes on smaller lots. I have a long memory. I have seen this happen. I'm not saying it's all bad, but I think most of our residents are of the mindset that "we're full."

Can you point me to an area of Buckhead that is becoming more sparsely populated? If this were happening, I know many who would welcome it. What is the problem with low density? It's what makes our area child-friendly and enjoyable.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlJan View Post
Are the current residents looking for rezoning to add mid-rises? Are they asking for duplexes and ADUs? I haven't heard any interest in that.
Yes. I am a current resident that is one of many that supports creating more housing options. Some of these rule changes are thankfully already happening thanks to popular support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlJan View Post
What is the problem with low density? It's what makes our area child-friendly and enjoyable.
No one is trying to outlaw low density.

What is the problem with high density? It's what makes our area child-friendly and enjoyable.

We are simply trying to legalize high density options too so people can have more choices in where and how they live.

Last edited by jsvh; 09-10-2019 at 04:09 PM..
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:21 PM
bu2
 
23,907 posts, read 14,701,286 times
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Didn't format real well. But this is the density of the core cities of the 20 largest MSAs in America. Atlanta at 3,539 is ahead of only Phoenix and Tampa in density and Phoenix is nearly 4 times the area. Dallas is about 10% denser with 2.5 times the area and Houston is slightly denser with 5 times the area. Outlying areas tend to be more suburban and less dense (for example Houston's 96 sq miles inside loop 610 are estimated to have a density of 4,743/sq mile compared to 3,613 for the whole city). Atlanta is even significantly less dense than Riverside (that is a separate MSA from LA). Hollowed out St. Louis which has a third of its peak population still has a density over 5,000/sq mile.

The point is there is a large amount of density that could be added without looking anything like New York or even San Francisco or Boston.

city rank 2016 est. 2010 area density msa rank
1 New York 8,398,748 8,175,133 301.5*sq*mi 28,317/sq*mi 1
15 San Francisco 883,305 805,235 46.9*sq*mi 18,569/sq*mi 12
21 Boston 694,583 617,594 48.3*sq*mi 13,938/sq*mi 10
40 Miami 470,914 399,457 36.0*sq*mi 12,599/sq*mi 7
3 Chicago 2,705,994 2,695,598 227.3*sq*mi 11,900/sq*mi 3
6 Philadelphia1,584,1381,526,006 134.2*sq*mi 11,683/sq*mi 8
20 Washington 702,455 601,723 61.1*sq*mi 11,148/sq*mi 6
2 Los Angeles3,990,456 3,792,621 468.7*sq*mi 8,484/sq*mi 2
18 Seattle 744,955 608,660 83.8*sq*mi 8,405/sq*mi 15
46 Minneapolis425,403 382,578 54.0*sq*mi 7,660/sq*mi 16
64 St. Louis 302,838 319,294 62.0*sq*mi 5,023/sq*mi 20
23 Detroit 672,662 713,777 138.8*sq*mi 4,847/sq*mi 14
19 Denver[i] 716,492 600,158 153.3*sq*mi 4,521/sq*mi 19
8 San Diego 1,425,976 1,307,402 325.2*sq*mi 4,325/sq*mi 17
58 Riverside 330,063 303,871 81.2*sq*mi 3,999/sq*mi 14
9 Dallas 1,345,047 1,197,816 340.9*sq*mi 3,866/sq*mi 4
4 Houston 2,325,502 2,100,263 637.5*sq*mi 3,613/sq*mi 5
37 Atlanta 498,044 420,003 133.5*sq*mi 3,539/sq*mi 9
49 Tampa 392,890 335,709 113.4*sq*mi 3,326/sq*mi 18
5 Phoenix 1,660,272 1,445,632 517.6*sq*mi 3,120/sq*mi 11
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:32 PM
 
2,302 posts, read 2,971,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Yes. I am a current resident that is one of many that supports creating more housing options. Some of these rule changes are thankfully already happening thanks to popular support.



No one is trying to outlaw low density.

What is the problem with high density? It's what makes our area child-friendly and enjoyable.

We are simply trying to legalize high density options too so people can have more choices in where and how they live.
If you enjoy high-density, choose one of our high-density areas. By re-zoning low density areas into higher density, you take away the choice to have low density. I have been to several zoning board meetings, and never have I seen Buckhead residents arguing en masse for more higher-density development--it's always the opposite. The neighborhoods do not want the change. Zoning exists to maintain the neighborhoods the way they are and protect people's property.
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:34 PM
 
2,302 posts, read 2,971,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh View Post
Yes. I am a current resident that is one of many that supports creating more housing options. Some of these rule changes are thankfully already happening thanks to popular support.
What neighborhood do you live in? Are you looking to change the zoning of your own neighborhood or others or both?
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:35 PM
 
2,302 posts, read 2,971,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Didn't format real well. But this is the density of the core cities of the 20 largest MSAs in America. Atlanta at 3,539 is ahead of only Phoenix and Tampa in density and Phoenix is nearly 4 times the area. Dallas is about 10% denser with 2.5 times the area and Houston is slightly denser with 5 times the area. Outlying areas tend to be more suburban and less dense (for example Houston's 96 sq miles inside loop 610 are estimated to have a density of 4,743/sq mile compared to 3,613 for the whole city). Atlanta is even significantly less dense than Riverside (that is a separate MSA from LA). Hollowed out St. Louis which has a third of its peak population still has a density over 5,000/sq mile.

The point is there is a large amount of density that could be added without looking anything like New York or even San Francisco or Boston.

city rank 2016 est. 2010 area density msa rank
1 New York 8,398,748 8,175,133 301.5*sq*mi 28,317/sq*mi 1
15 San Francisco 883,305 805,235 46.9*sq*mi 18,569/sq*mi 12
21 Boston 694,583 617,594 48.3*sq*mi 13,938/sq*mi 10
40 Miami 470,914 399,457 36.0*sq*mi 12,599/sq*mi 7
3 Chicago 2,705,994 2,695,598 227.3*sq*mi 11,900/sq*mi 3
6 Philadelphia1,584,1381,526,006 134.2*sq*mi 11,683/sq*mi 8
20 Washington 702,455 601,723 61.1*sq*mi 11,148/sq*mi 6
2 Los Angeles3,990,456 3,792,621 468.7*sq*mi 8,484/sq*mi 2
18 Seattle 744,955 608,660 83.8*sq*mi 8,405/sq*mi 15
46 Minneapolis425,403 382,578 54.0*sq*mi 7,660/sq*mi 16
64 St. Louis 302,838 319,294 62.0*sq*mi 5,023/sq*mi 20
23 Detroit 672,662 713,777 138.8*sq*mi 4,847/sq*mi 14
19 Denver[i] 716,492 600,158 153.3*sq*mi 4,521/sq*mi 19
8 San Diego 1,425,976 1,307,402 325.2*sq*mi 4,325/sq*mi 17
58 Riverside 330,063 303,871 81.2*sq*mi 3,999/sq*mi 14
9 Dallas 1,345,047 1,197,816 340.9*sq*mi 3,866/sq*mi 4
4 Houston 2,325,502 2,100,263 637.5*sq*mi 3,613/sq*mi 5
37 Atlanta 498,044 420,003 133.5*sq*mi 3,539/sq*mi 9
49 Tampa 392,890 335,709 113.4*sq*mi 3,326/sq*mi 18
5 Phoenix 1,660,272 1,445,632 517.6*sq*mi 3,120/sq*mi 11

I think everyone agrees that we could add the density, but the question is should it be done. It seems our low density sets us apart and could be viewed as a good thing.
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:38 PM
 
37,816 posts, read 41,609,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlJan View Post
I think everyone agrees that we could add the density, but the question is should it be done. It seems our low density sets us apart and could be viewed as a good thing.
Yes it should be done, at least in designated areas like near MARTA stations. One big advantage is that it makes mass transit more efficient and effective.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:22 PM
 
10,974 posts, read 10,826,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
The point is there is a large amount of density that could be added without looking anything like New York or even San Francisco or Boston.

Yep.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:23 PM
 
10,974 posts, read 10,826,051 times
Reputation: 3435
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlJan View Post
What neighborhood do you live in? Are you looking to change the zoning of your own neighborhood or others or both?
Both. And it is not just me doing this.

Like Minneapolis did with its recent city-wide rezoning, we should not try to keep any one area under glass. The whole city should legalize adding additional families in at least some amount like duplexes / ADUs.
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