Another rail proposal (Atlanta, Millen: apartment, house, price)

[MattCW]

Yep, I'm afraid community opposition will be fierce. The eastside beltline has become nearly a free-for-all. People aren't going to like having to share space with a fenced in RoW, with "ugly" wires strung up over the tracks right outside the condo balconies. Restaurants aren't going to want their "experience" "ruined" by a train whispering past every 7 minutes. We can talk on here till we're blue in the fingers about the original vision and whatever else, but it won't make a difference. The NIMBYs (NIMFYs? Not In My Front Yard?) will come out in force, I guarantee it!

[SEAandATL]

Yeah, at some spots I'm wondering where they are even going to have room for a train, like the PCM/O4W area and by KSM.

[MrJester]

Originally Posted by bu2

Other than LA, those areas are vastly more dense than Atlanta. And in LA, transit ridership has been steadily falling as they have been building rail. Those areas also have heavier downtown employment.

LA is actually much denser than Atlanta. It's downtown has a tiny, tiny share of employment. But you are spot on about transit ridership in LA falling even as LA is in the middle of the most aggressive rail transit building program in the country.

I say that mass transit will fail in LA, Atlanta, and most other urban centers outside the Northeast if the Downtown and inner cities of US cities continue to be undesirable cesspools of crime and homelessness where anyone who has even some money will flee to the sprawling suburbs. The remaining inner city residents will be low income people, and even they will often start driving their cars more because they're scared of the dingy dangerous transit systems.

Only the people who can't afford even a used car, the poorest of the poor, will continue to use transit, and transit will continue to have a stigma as this dirty, crime infested mode of transportation that you avoid unless you are dirt poor.

[MattCW]

For PCM and south, RoW isn't an issue, there's plenty of room, the trail might have to be shifted east a little in places, it looks like they've done a good job preserving room for LRT as well as full size rail service in this area. Where it gets tight for all three modes is north of Ponce De Leon Ave.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by MrJester

LA is actually much denser than Atlanta. It's downtown has a tiny, tiny share of employment. But you are spot on about transit ridership in LA falling even as LA is in the middle of the most aggressive rail transit building program in the country.

I say that mass transit will fail in LA, Atlanta, and most other urban centers outside the Northeast if the Downtown and inner cities of US cities continue to be undesirable cesspools of crime and homelessness where anyone who has even some money will flee to the sprawling suburbs. The remaining inner city residents will be low income people, and even they will often start driving their cars more because they're scared of the dingy dangerous transit systems.

Only the people who can't afford even a used car, the poorest of the poor, will continue to use transit, and transit will continue to have a stigma as this dirty, crime infested mode of transportation that you avoid unless you are dirt poor.

...I disagree. I am far from the stereotype you portray as transit users and am focused in STEM / innovation in my career path and I personally do use rail when accessible in order to defeat traffic logged commutes. If you have used a bus or the light rail in Seattle you will see this assumption is heavily inaccurate.

Also gentrification within the past decade has long uplifted the vibrancy of many urban cores. Yes with density you will have more problems such as homelessness and crime but to say that urban cores are only desirable for the less fortunate and that anyone with even ‘some’ money are fleeing to the suburbs is far from accurate, in fact lately it is quite the opposite, many are priced out of the urban cores due to the rapid gentrification and influx of demand to live near the core, that may have reached a stumbling block as of late due to the pandemic but Downtown’s have been on a massive upswing for quite some time now.

I do agree to an extent that the lack of density does in a sense defeat rail and that the Northeastern cities do have that in their favor, that and suburbs are built with more automotive based infrastructure making their designs less feasible to walking and transit but automotive infrastructure while great, has its limits and shouldn’t be the only thing we are relying on to move commuters, especially for those of us who do not wish to sit on a congested interstate to commute.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by MrJester

LA is actually much denser than Atlanta. It's downtown has a tiny, tiny share of employment. But you are spot on about transit ridership in LA falling even as LA is in the middle of the most aggressive rail transit building program in the country.

I say that mass transit will fail in LA, Atlanta, and most other urban centers outside the Northeast if the Downtown and inner cities of US cities continue to be undesirable cesspools of crime and homelessness where anyone who has even some money will flee to the sprawling suburbs. The remaining inner city residents will be low income people, and even they will often start driving their cars more because they're scared of the dingy dangerous transit systems.

Only the people who can't afford even a used car, the poorest of the poor, will continue to use transit, and transit will continue to have a stigma as this dirty, crime infested mode of transportation that you avoid unless you are dirt poor.

This reads like a parody.

[Dangerous-Boy]

Originally Posted by bu2

Other than LA, those areas are vastly more dense than Atlanta. And in LA, transit ridership has been steadily falling as they have been building rail. Those areas also have heavier downtown employment.

Suburban rail is just not efficient. When you get much outside 285, park n rides with HOV/HOT lanes give you cheaper and better service. With all the stops, trains are slower than express bus and they let you off further from your destination.

I used LA's subway. It was pretty good

[demonta4]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Yep, I'm afraid community opposition will be fierce. The eastside beltline has become nearly a free-for-all. People aren't going to like having to share space with a fenced in RoW, with "ugly" wires strung up over the tracks right outside the condo balconies. Restaurants aren't going to want their "experience" "ruined" by a train whispering past every 7 minutes. We can talk on here till we're blue in the fingers about the original vision and whatever else, but it won't make a difference. The NIMBYs (NIMFYs? Not In My Front Yard?) will come out in force, I guarantee it!

They should've known what they were buying into. Beltline rail has been anticipated for decades now.

[MrJester]

Originally Posted by Gulch

This reads like a parody.

LA proper is denser than Atlanta proper. LA suburbs are denser than Atlanta suburbs. Is that a parody to you?

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by MrJester

LA proper is denser than Atlanta proper. LA suburbs are denser than Atlanta suburbs. Is that a parody to you?

I was referring to the bolded parts:

Originally Posted by MrJester

LA is actually much denser than Atlanta. It's downtown has a tiny, tiny share of employment. But you are spot on about transit ridership in LA falling even as LA is in the middle of the most aggressive rail transit building program in the country.

I say that mass transit will fail in LA, Atlanta, and most other urban centers outside the Northeast if the Downtown and inner cities of US cities continue to be undesirable cesspools of crime and homelessness where anyone who has even some money will flee to the sprawling suburbs. The remaining inner city residents will be low income people, and even they will often start driving their cars more because they're scared of the dingy dangerous transit systems.

Only the people who can't afford even a used car, the poorest of the poor, will continue to use transit, and transit will continue to have a stigma as this dirty, crime infested mode of transportation that you avoid unless you are dirt poor.