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While I understand and agree that Atlanta 's transit system is severely in need of work and that the general conscience in this forum is on a major push toward that.. I'm still a road geek at heart and can't help but notice a few things..anyway.. just wanted to start an opinion thread - and leave it at that..just opinions.
#1 - Yielding Left Turn Flashing Amber Arrows - 4 light stack - Introduced 2012 / 2013.
I guess I should re-iterate, they're not new.. they were out in the western states (Utah, Idaho, Oregon, Washington and a few other states all had them before they came to Georgia around 2012 - 2013) for several years before Georgia and several other southeastern states took advantage of them (Seen them in NC, SC, FL as well. I wouldn't be surprised if VA and TN had them either)
When they first arrived I was already used to them because we had them in Washington and Oregon. The cool thing about them is when opposing traffic (coming toward you) gets a green light, even when right-of-way traffic to your right thats going straight has a red light, you're still permitted to make a yielding left turn. What I hate about them though, is the same concept that GA-DOT is using them to eliminate a protected green arrow at the beginning of the traffic cycle, sometimes allowing opposing traffic to make a left turn, or sometimes allowing the light to go a complete cycle without ever giving you a protected arrow. In a few instances I have also seen them protect traffic FROM making a left turn by turning red during peak traffic hours to minimize the chances of accidents (See Highway 92 between Roswell and Woodstock for example)
#2 Diverging Diamond Interchanges
I have alot to say about these... SOMETIMES I feel like people only praise them because they're different, however; all 4 of the DDI's that Im aware of, operate completely different from one another and some have key features that really help traffic while others don't.
I personally feel that Pleasant Hill Rd is one of the worse implemented ones, while the new one that opened up on Windy Hill Rd is one of the best of their implementation (I actually see a severe improvement in traffic flow on Windy Hill) Pleasant Hill however also suffers from several other traffic issues, the main one is that there are too many MAJOR intersections that are just too close together. What would really help that area is if they condensed it to about 3 intersections with I-85 Being one of those three. For example dumping all of Gwinnett Place Traffic onto Satelite Blvd, same goes for that strip mall across the street from it. - Thats going a bit off on the deep end though. The thing I hate about the Pleasant Hill DDI is that traffic exiting the highway no longer has keep moving lanes. There just isnt enough space to implement it properly so right turn traffic has to stop. People exiting the freeway making left turns will make a left turn only to be stopped by the very next light of which is allowing opposing traffic to "cross" onto the left lanes to cross the bridge - always happens.. both lights should be synchronized to be green or to alteast allow left turning traffic to enter the bridge right before the end of the cycle so they can clear the bridge. Windy Hill takes advantage of right turn lanes that mostly allow you to keep moving - Pleasant Hill does not, you have to yield if entering the expressway, and completely stop if you're exiting it.
#3 The new HOT lanes in McDonough
There was a time I used to travel to McDonough and Hampton religiously and I just could not believe they left that section of I-75 between Stockbridge and Hampton as 3 lanes each way. Compartively all of Gwinnett is atleast 5 lanes each way at minimum.. same goes for Cobb.. Then even Nashville at the distance McDonough is from downtown, I-24 is 4 lanes each way.
Well..I wasn't thrilled that the only thing theyre doing is building toll lanes when they could add atleast two more lanes each way with the space they have out there (and before people blow up that adding more lanes is a sin, please don't forget that I-75 is a MAJOR trade route to Florida and is really the only practical way to get there for almost the entire eastern Midwest and western Northeast - thus.. I-75 isn't serving just local traffic.. alot of that is trade or commerce or vacation traffic.)
At the same time, I havent yet had a chance to go down that way and actually use them. Has been on my to do list..well..the next time I go to McDonough during the afternoon - which is probably never.
#1 - Yes. Think it is a cycle option that already existed with previous 3 and 5 light stacks (left turn yield during solid green), but flashing yellow arrow makes it clearer.
#2 - They have their place. They can move car traffic more efficiently, but can also be more hostile to pedestrians and bikes.
#3 - Big fan of HOT lanes. It is really the only way you can reduce traffic. Everything else is a short term fix.
I like the flashing yellow because it allows for left turns to yield with or without a green for straight thru traffic. In Texas I eventually saw the flashing yellow just before Atlanta but before that they would have a almost darkened green for the left lane (with the little slits so thru traffic couldn't see it). This accomplished the same thing. You could turn as long as you yielded without worrying about running a red light.
I technically ran a light up in Lavonia. I was so used to the flashing yellow in Atlanta that I forgot I technically had a red light after the protected left green arrow changed to yellow. I mean, I yielded to all traffic but yea, that's why I like the flashing yellow.
I'll tell you those HOT lanes through Henry is a blessing. If they were free lanes it wouldn't work because traffic would just spread out but now I can just pass all of it.
1. Flashing Yellow Arrows: mostly indifferent towards them. I don't mind them, and think they might help a little bit. I hate red arrows at a lot of intersections. If there's a clear view of oncoming traffic, there is no need for red arrows. All they do is stop movement when there is no need.
2. Diverging Diamond Interchanges: Agree with you. The Windy Hill one seems different from the others, and seems to work okay. For a while, I worked off Jimmy Carter Blvd. I stopped using the Jimmy Carter exit specifically because of how horrible the diverging diamond is there. Whenever the light finally turned green to let you turn left onto JC from I-85N, traffic on JC was backed up from the light down the way which had turned red previously, and thus no traffic could turn left. It was a nightmare. The cycles were also WAY too long (that's true all over atlanta). Instead, I exited a couple of miles previous, and took back roads to work. But, the Windy Hill one, the one or two times I've used it, seems to function much better.
3. HOT lanes: I've never used the ones down by McDonough, but my dad did, and he was a huge fan. Traffic on 75 was at it's usual McDonough standstill, and no one was in the HOT lanes. I have used the one on I85N, and it was nice, except that there were no dotted lines to get out of it for miles before my exit, so I got stuck in it for longer than I wanted to be.
I think a vast transit network would be a lot more effective. All HOT lanes do is make it more expensive for those who can afford it.
Transit is a key part of the transportation solution. And does solve traffic for those that take it. But it does not fix traffic for those that still drive in the long-run.
If you build a transit line running next to a highway, people will still take the option that it cheaper in time + money. So if the highway is free it will fill with traffic before a lot of people will start to switch to transit due to it now having a lower time-cost. Thing is, transit is the more-cost-efficient option, so if we give people the option of paying the money-costs for both you will get a lot more that switch to transit well before roads become grid-locked.
I think a vast transit network would be a lot more effective. All HOT lanes do is make it more expensive for those who can afford it.
Ideally we would be using both. Tolls to meter traffic and keep it flowing, with extensive transit to offer alternatives to those tolls and the roads in general.
The problem I have here in Georgia is that the state loves HOT lanes, but doesn't want to help with the other part of the equation beyond saying that buses can use them too. Not bad, but not enough either.
Japan, IIRC, has a solid toll lane system that is coupled with extensive transit to provide everyone an actual set of options on mobility. The tolls directly fund the roads while also metering traffic and encouraging more dense development, wherein transit can act as a strong, cost effective competitor.
There was a time I used to travel to McDonough and Hampton religiously and I just could not believe they left that section of I-75 between Stockbridge and Hampton as 3 lanes each way. Compartively all of Gwinnett is atleast 5 lanes each way at minimum.. same goes for Cobb.. Then even Nashville at the distance McDonough is from downtown, I-24 is 4 lanes each way.
Well..I wasn't thrilled that the only thing theyre doing is building toll lanes when they could add atleast two more lanes each way with the space they have out there (and before people blow up that adding more lanes is a sin, please don't forget that I-75 is a MAJOR trade route to Florida and is really the only practical way to get there for almost the entire eastern Midwest and western Northeast - thus.. I-75 isn't serving just local traffic.. alot of that is trade or commerce or vacation traffic.)
At the same time, I havent yet had a chance to go down that way and actually use them. Has been on my to do list..well..the next time I go to McDonough during the afternoon - which is probably never.
That is an excellent point that Interstate 75 is a major trade route between the Midwest and Florida.
The state of Georgia is actually at a point on I-75 where Florida-bound traffic is funneled from points northwest (via I-24 eastbound southeast of Nashville) and points north (via I-75 southbound north of Chattanooga) onto one roadway at Chattanooga (I-75 southbound headed towards Atlanta and points south).
That funneling of Florida-bound traffic from points northwest (the western side of the Great Lakes and the Midwest) and points north (the east-central side of the Great Lakes) onto one roadway at Chattanooga is one of the reasons why I-75 has three lanes in each direction between Chattanooga and Atlanta.
But even though I-75 is a major trade route through the state of Georgia, the reasoning of GDOT (the Georgia Department of Transportation) for not adding to I-75 south of Atlanta the same number of untolled general purpose lanes that were added to Interstates 75 and 85 north of Atlanta (where I-75 has as many as 15 lanes and where I-85 has as many as 20 lanes) is that traffic will just quickly fill up whatever amount of untolled lanes are added to I-75 South like has been the case on I-75 and I-85 north of the city.
Because almost whatever new untolled lanes that have been added to roadways like I-75 North and I-85 North have seemed to quickly fill up with traffic in the past, GDOT has come to the conclusion that the best use of limited road construction funds is to build new toll lanes (where escalating variable peak-hour tolls can attempt to keep the new lanes from filling up with traffic) instead of building new untolled general purpose lanes that have no mechanism that attempts to prevent congestion.
I say that escalating variable peak-hour tolls attempt to prevent congestion because in the case of the I-85 toll lanes (which consist of only one toll lane on each direction of I-85 northeast of Atlanta), congestion has been a problem in the toll lanes because of the wholly inadequate design of the toll lanes on I-85.
That is an excellent point that Interstate 75 is a major trade route between the Midwest and Florida.
The state of Georgia is actually at a point on I-75 where Florida-bound traffic is funneled from points northwest (via I-24 eastbound southeast of Nashville) and points north (via I-75 southbound north of Chattanooga) onto one roadway at Chattanooga (I-75 southbound headed towards Atlanta and points south).
That funneling of Florida-bound traffic from points northwest (the western side of the Great Lakes and the Midwest) and points north (the east-central side of the Great Lakes) onto one roadway at Chattanooga is one of the reasons why I-75 has three lanes in each direction between Chattanooga and Atlanta.
But even though I-75 is a major trade route through the state of Georgia, the reasoning of GDOT (the Georgia Department of Transportation) for not adding to I-75 south of Atlanta the same number of untolled general purpose lanes that were added to Interstates 75 and 85 north of Atlanta (where I-75 has as many as 15 lanes and where I-85 has as many as 20 lanes) is that traffic will just quickly fill up whatever amount of untolled lanes are added to I-75 South like has been the case on I-75 and I-85 north of the city.
Because almost whatever new untolled lanes that have been added to roadways like I-75 North and I-85 North have seemed to quickly fill up with traffic in the past, GDOT has come to the conclusion that the best use of limited road construction funds is to build new toll lanes (where escalating variable peak-hour tolls can attempt to keep the new lanes from filling up with traffic) instead of building new untolled general purpose lanes that have no mechanism that attempts to prevent congestion.
I say that escalating variable peak-hour tolls attempt to prevent congestion because in the case of the I-85 toll lanes (which consist of only one toll lane on each direction of I-85 northeast of Atlanta), congestion has been a problem in the toll lanes because of the wholly inadequate design of the toll lanes on I-85.
There are still some things that I wonder about though and that is this...
I know that I-85 / I-75 are massive highways in North Atlanta (Actually besides Texas and California I don't think I've seen interstates larger than those.) The main thing that I consider though is that I am in the belief that North Atlanta has a much stronger demand (and is also much more densly populated) than Clayton and Henry County's. For example, look at I-85 between Hartsfield Jackson Intl Airport and Fairburn GA - It's 4 lanes each way but is a very smooth ride because there's not as much development down that way and it "seems" like it will remain fairly aquedate in that form for a fairly good amount of time. Now... Clayton and Henry are definately no Gwinnett and Cobb, but they're not exactly little league's either.. so I have been on the personal belief that 5 lanes could sustain those counties while keeping things bearable.. but lets say that we didn't expand it - (and don't get me wrong I do love the HOT lanes as well as I use them religiously on I-85) - The problem that I see with not expanding the highway is that.. we're not doing ANYTHING else to satisfy the need and demand for transit means to and from Atlanta.. so basically.. it's like saying this:
"We're not going to build more lanes because it will only encourage more congestion and traffic as the lanes will eventually fill up and we'll have the same problem as before. We want to DISCOURAGE traffic growth on this cooridoor"
-- Which is fine...but... they're also saying...
"We have no plans to alleviate your transportation needs by any other means."
-- You see, its like..There is no bus or train service so they're condemning people for using cars, but they're also not providing any alternatives so people are stuck, they have no other choice but to sit in traffic and cause congestion. I could see it if there was a train or efficient bus system servicing that area but right now there isn't.. so its kind of like neglecting the problem altogether.. They're saying, we're not going to make the road bigger as we don't want the additional lanes filling up.. but they have no plans for the commuters who still need to travel - as.. those people aren't going to just vanish just because the highway isn't larger.. they just sit in traffic because now they have no choice but to. So its like, in my opinion its fine not to make the highways larger, but before you condemn vehicular traffic, you have to provide them with an alternative means because right now they're saying "We don't want you to continue bringing more cars onto the road" and Henry / Clayton are saying "Okay, so how else can I get to work?" and GADOT replies with "Uhhh.."
Regarding the Toll Lanes..I think it will take about 2 - 3 years before they become more congested and the prices rise. Here in Gwinnett, the $13 toll has never detured me from using the lane during peak hours, however; I also am not always on I-85 during peak hours plus here and there I get the benefit of commuting with 3+ people making it free to use for me.
For the I-85 HOT Lanes, one "unrealistic" dream I wish that could be done would be much like what was done on I-635 LBJ Freeway, they submerged the lanes under the highway. So you could have like 3 - 4 express lanes in each direction with one of those lanes dedicated for buses EVEN WITH PARK&RIDE / COMMUTER STOPS along the path (Seattle has this in the HOV lanes on their interstates making them much like road trains and its pretty effective) - The same kind of idea would dramatically improve I-285's northern crest between Doraville and Smyrna.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 06-25-2017 at 08:01 PM..
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