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What are some examples of other "newly gentrified" cities?
Anything that's grown up in the last couple decades. Houston, Dallas, Denver come to mind.
For that matter having lived in DC in recent years, even most new DC development is the same variety. Is a Target or a Walmart in town really something to brag about?
Why do people choose to live in NYC over White Plains, NY?
Or Chicago over Springfield. Ill.?
Or Philadelphia over Lancaster, PA?
Or Orlando over Kissimmee, FL?
Or Los Angeles over Palmdale, CA?
I think it may be similar reasons why some people prefer to choose Atlanta over Roswell or Duluth...
Did you bother even reading what I wrote? The first three cities you list aren't newly gentrified/developed.
Which is why they offer things like locally owned corner stores, restaurants, and pedestrian-friendly development.
There are very few corners of Atlanta that actually offer that type of development (and you're not getting a nice home in one for under $600k at best, probably more).
The downtowns of (among others) Roswell, Marietta, Duluth, Decatur, Lawrenceville, Woodstock all are more walkable, more organic, with a greater locally owned presence than the vast majority of intown Atlanta neighborhoods.
I'm writing this from my home in one of the more walkable corners of Midtown. Is walking to the park or the Botanical Garden nice? Sure. But when the stuff that's most walkable to me on the retail side include a QT, a Waffle House, a Taco Mac, and a Target, something's wrong. I might as well be in the burbs.
Again, downtown Roswell (quite literally) offers greater and more unique options than what I have here in a more compact and walkable environment.
I think he's referring to the resurgence of downtowns and intown living that has occurred nationwide over last 15 years.
Atlanta experienced it bigtime and infamous congestion propelled it even more.
In town has gotten refreshed in many ways that were sorely needed. As time passes, eventually everything needs to be rebuilt.
As far as the advantages of the suburbs over the city of Atlanta are concerned...
One thing I've learned as I've gotten older is that the general public is pretty stupid and clueless. They think, oh, Atlanta is a major city so how different could it be from any other big city?
They don't know how different everywhere in America actually is, and they'll move to Atlanta, suffer from several hits to quality of life like worse traffic than what should be due to a state DOT that's a little lax in proactive planning, and they'll raise the population of a city regardless of it's worthiness.
Otherwise, living intown is appropriate for whatever group congregates there like the Gay community or the Lesbian community who love Decatur.
Alpharetta wouldn't suit them as well. Some places are better for raising children than others, and the city of Atlanta probably isn't one of them.
You make some valid points. So if BobbyJayATL is referring to the resurgence of many/most major cities in the country, then he is, in essence, saying most suburbs have better (or at least on par) amenities and QOL than most cities. I suppose that is a matter of opinion, which he is entitled to have.
But where to raise kids is also very subjective as well. Atlanta is not a good place to raise children to whom? Every city, like the examples I gave earlier (NYC, Chicago, LA, Philly, etc.), is not going to be Mayberry. But is Mayberry the best place for everyone? Does Mayberry produce the best people/citizens? Many people born and/or raised in the aforementioned cities have had great childhoods, schools, families, and successful lives.
I agree big cities have faults that are intrinsic of big cities. Just as small towns have faults that are intrinsic of small towns. And every city has their bad parts. But big cities are big—with lots of options and variety for a wide range of people. So I think we tend to paint with an unnecessarily large brush when discussing the City of Atlanta. Would I raise MY child in the Bluff? Probably not, but all of Atlanta is not the Bluff. And there are some who feel quite comfortable in the Bluff. Everyone tends to make things so black and white and disregard all the varying shades of grey. It is difficult to convey (without writing a dissertation) the intangible things that make Atlanta a special place for those use choose to live in Atlanta. I agree, it’s not for everyone. But then again, no city is right for everybody. But there is enough here for many different walks of life to live, thrive, and coexist.
However, when the suburban movement (in the south—Atlanta in particular) began, it was often to be away from people perceived to be different from themselves. And I think there are some elements of that even today...
Did you bother even reading what I wrote? The first three cities you list aren't newly gentrified/developed.
.
Calm down, buddy. Look at the times of my posts. You just now answered the question I asked about “newly gentrified” cities. There was a whole other spin-off conversation started about your post before you even replied...
Anything that's grown up in the last couple decades. Houston, Dallas, Denver come to mind.
For that matter having lived in DC in recent years, even most new DC development is the same variety. Is a Target or a Walmart in town really something to brag about?
No, I don’t think Walmart or Target is something to brag about. I don’t really recall people bragging about that stuff. But, in MY opinion, Atlanta has far more to offer than vertical big box stores... I live just south of I-20 and there are PLENTY of walkable locally owned options that do not include Target and Walmart or cookie-cutter chain establishments. But most wouldn’t know because they’ve been told at the onset to be sure not to venture south of I-20...
Last edited by equinox63; 02-05-2021 at 10:07 PM..
That sounds about right to me. If you're going north, you pretty much have to be in SC or NC to be out of the range of Atlanta. Going south is another story; you only have to get past Fayetteville/Peachtree City/Senoia before you're eeally out in the country.
The downtowns of (among others) Roswell, Marietta, Duluth, Decatur, Lawrenceville, Woodstock all are more walkable, more organic, with a greater locally owned presence than the vast majority of intown Atlanta neighborhoods.
I'm writing this from my home in one of the more walkable corners of Midtown. Is walking to the park or the Botanical Garden nice? Sure. But when the stuff that's most walkable to me on the retail side include a QT, a Waffle House, a Taco Mac, and a Target, something's wrong. I might as well be in the burbs.
Again, downtown Roswell (quite literally) offers greater and more unique options than what I have here in a more compact and walkable environment.
Sorry, but I just want to point out one last observation. Notice that you are comparing the downtowns of entire cities to your (and other Atlanta) neighborhoods. In Atlanta (and Decatur as I consider that intown), there are several different places with the things you describe within the city. At least there is variety within EAV, Kirkwood, East Lake, Reynoldstown, Grant Park, Summerhill, Virginia Highland, Cabbagetown, O4W, Candler Park, Inman Park, Blandtown, Castleberry Hill, and even Westview.
So, in essence, Atlanta (as a city) has far more local, organic, walkable neighborhood options at various different price points than the other cities you mentioned. You are comparing your neighborhood to a city’s commercial core. Remember, Atlanta is more than just Midtown.
The last several comments mentioning the benefits of Intown living vs. the benefits of suburban/exurban living raise a very important point that I alluded to earlier in this thread, which is that much (if not most, or all) of the interest in and growth of Atlanta’s suburbs and exurbs outside of the I-285 Perimeter more than likely would not be viable or even possible without the existence of a very strong urban core inside of the I-285 Perimeter.
It is the robust growth and the vibrancy of Atlanta’s ITP/Intown urban core that have helped to contribute heavily to the very robust growth, appeal and attractability of Atlanta’s OTP suburbs and exurbs, even if many (or most) people moving into the suburbs and exurbs may not necessarily want to live directly in urban core neighborhoods.
The beauty about the metro Atlanta of recent years is that it gives people multiple robust options of different metropolitan lifestyles to choose from.
The metro Atlanta of recent years of course continues to offer the often highly touted option of living in an upscale neighborhood in the city’s affluent crescent of amenity-rich Northside outer suburbs and exurbs.
But the metro Atlanta of recent years has also offered a more diverse range of metropolitan living options, including:
> Upscale inner-suburban/closer-in suburban living in gentrified closer-in suburbs like Chamblee, Smyrna, Marietta, Norcross, Duluth, Lawrenceville, etc.
> Higher-density living in inner-suburban ITP/ATP areas like Vinings, Cumberland, Sandy Springs, Dunwoody, Brookhaven, etc.
> Affluent urban living in gentrifying ITP/Intown neighborhoods and districts like Decatur/Avondale Estates, greater Intown East Atlanta, Midtown, West Midtown, etc.
> A robust urban lifestyle in rising/upwards transitioning Intown neighborhoods like West End, Castleberry Hill, Westview, Intown West Atlanta, Summerhill, Grant Park, etc.
> Living in affluent Southside outer-suburban areas like Peachtree City, Eagles Landing, Lake Spivey, etc.
> Living in relatively lower-cost but still very high-quality affluent Southside outer-suburban areas like parts of Coweta, Fayette and Henry counties
> Living in a quality lower-middle/working-class suburban neighborhood in the greater Southern Crescent roughly south of a line from US-278/GA-6, GA-360 and Windy Hill Road west of Smyrna and the West Wall of I-285 (in south Paulding and south Cobb counties) to roughly south of US-78 east of the I-285 East Wall (in south DeKalb and south Gwinnett counties) outside of the I-285 Perimeter... An expansive area that includes south Paulding, south Cobb, Douglas, south Fulton, Coweta, north Fayette, Clayton, Henry, south DeKalb, south Gwinnett, Rockdale, Newton and south Walton counties.
Of course, like I noted earlier in this thread, more people move into Atlanta’s suburbs and exurbs, just simply because there is so much more developed suburban and exurban land area outside of the I-285 Perimeter than inside of it.
But it is unquestionably the Atlanta name and brand (including the world-leading international airport, the high-profile entertainment industry, the namesake professional sports teams, the high-profile sporting events, the city’s history the cradle of the Civil Rights Movement, the city’s reputation as a “Mecca” for African-Americans, the city’s status as a regional hub of well-paying jobs across multiple fields, etc.) that attracts what are typically tens-of-thousands of newcomers to the greater Atlanta metropolitan area/region each year.
Forsyth will turn purple before the end of the current decade because of rapidly growing Asian, Latino and Black population and college educated younger White voters. In 2020 every precinct swung D and nearly every precinct saw large swings toward the Democrats even in N. Forsyth. My own precinct was tied with another S. Forsyth precinct for the largest swing to D at +17 from 2016. While increased Asian and Latino turnout are large factors in the swing to D the increased White vote share going to the Dems which is driven by younger college educated voters is an important component too.
Democrats just missed flipping Fayette in 2020. It’s all but certain they’ll flip it in 2022. Cherokee will remain fairly safe Republican longer because it’s less diverse and has lower college attainment than Forsyth. Paulding is another outer suburban county experiencing rapid demographic change and political realignment. It may well flip before Forsyth does as it’s already somewhat less Republican.
That’s interesting that you mention Paulding County (which often gets overlooked and sometimes even forgotten by many as a metro Atlanta county, just simply because the county is not located on a controlled-access superhighway).
That is because, despite continuing to be a decidedly majority non-Latino white county for the time being (with non-Latino whites making up 68% of the county’s population as of 2019), Paulding County appears to have a part of the county that is at least trending heavily majority-minority in the Hiram area where racial and ethnic minorities made up more than 71 percent of the student population at Hiram High School as of most recent count of students by the Georgia Department of Education on October 6, 2020.
Racial and ethnic minorities also made up more than 51 percent of the student population at Paulding County High School in that same GaDOE student count on October 6, 2020, while East Paulding, South Paulding and North Paulding high schools remain majority-white schools.
The fact that Hiram and Paulding County high schools have majority-minority student populations reflect the significant demographic changes that are underway in an overall majority-white far-outer suburban/exurban jurisdiction like Paulding County.
One thing that very likely is contributing to the apparent boom in the minority population in a far-outer suburban/exurban county like Paulding is that much of the county (outside of the North Paulding High School attendance zone) offers relatively affordable detached single-family housing that attracts large numbers of middle-middle class, lower-middle class and even working class families, including large numbers of minority families.
... Which is something that is similar to much of greater metro Atlanta outside of the ‘Golden Crescent’ swath of affluent Northside urban/suburban/exurban neighborhoods that extends through parts of North Paulding, Cobb, Cherokee, North Fulton, North DeKalb, Forsyth, Dawson, Hall, Gwinnett, Barrow and Jackson counties across suburban/exurban greater North metro Atlanta.
That explosion of the middle-middle class to working-class population throughout much of the Atlanta outer-suburbs is something that has helped to change the political makeup of the state of Georgia from a deep-red/decidedly-GOP state in the late-2000’s/early-2010’s to a purple/swing state as of the early 2020.
The change in the state’s political lean has been most apparent in the metro Atlanta outer suburbs where 6 counties (Rockdale, Douglas, Newton, Henry, Gwinnett and Cobb) have flipped from GOP control to Democratic control between 2008 and 2020 because of rapid and dramatic demographic changes in those jurisdictions.
It is interesting how the rough terrain that served as a PITA for development back in the day is now the same feature that draws new development. I wonder if there would be more national forest land south of the city if it would have a greater draw? I'm not sure how much of the draw north is the mountains per say as it is the public land and trail / rec opportunities?
Atlanta is unique, at least compared to the western US, in that it's all relatively equally nice and easy to build in all directions. It's part of the reason the metro has been able to grow like it has. For comparison, look at Denver, it's flanked on one side by very difficult to build in foothills to the west, by pollution hellhole to the NE, and perpetual wind and hail no mans land to the east. You can't exurb a place like that to the same extent, all the nice land has essentially been developed.
And as others have pointed out, it's partially newcomers choosing the outer burbs over the center, not entirely natives reprioritizing. When I was applying for the job I have now, I was really hesitant and would have probably turned it down had it been in downtown Atlanta office instead of the Suwanee one. Downtown would have been too far from outdoors stuff and too big for what I wanted.
That’s an excellent point that the public land, trail and outdoor recreational opportunities of the Blue Ridge Mountains have been a big part of the draw of Atlanta’s Northern suburbs and exurbs.
Though, in addition to public land, trail and outdoor recreational opportunities of the mountains, it has also been the visual and scenic appeal as well as the practical appeal of the hilly-to-mountains terrain of the foothills and ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains that have generated much of the growth and prosperity of the North Atlanta suburbs and exurbs.
Large numbers of people have been attracted to the area north of Atlanta because of the visual appeal of the beautiful scenery of the heavily forested rolling, hilly and mountainous terrain of the area.
Commercial land and real estate development interests have been attracted to the area because they often have been able to successfully use the nearby presence of foothills and ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains to market their residential and commercial real estate developments to prospective buyers.
Meanwhile, it was the hilly-to-mountainous terrain of the land that is why the federal government located the two major water supply and flood control reservoirs (man-made lakes Lanier and Allatoona) where they did northeast and northwest of Atlanta, respectively.
The hilly-to-mountainous terrain of the land and the location upstream of major pollution sources, made the development of the two major reservoirs, Lanier and Allatoona, a much more attractive option north of Atlanta than south of it.
As major sources of water supply and outdoor recreation, lakes Lanier and Allatoona have helped to generate some very significant economic development opportunities on the Northside, including:
> The development of the massive Lockheed aerospace plant at Dobbins Air Reserve Base in Marietta that has helped to propel Cobb County and suburban/exurban Northwest metro Atlanta into an economic, political and social powerhouse over the last several decades
> The development of the massive erstwhile Western Electric plant (now the site of OFS TV/movie studios) that helped propel Gwinnett County and much of suburban Northeast metro Atlanta into an economic and political powerhouse over the last 4-5 decades
> The development of exurban spur superhighways I-575, GA-400 and I-985 north of Atlanta running north away from the city towards the mountains. The 3 major spur superhighways were built with the intention of generating increased economic development opportunities in a part of the state of Georgia that at times often suffered from poverty and social isolation, particularly after the start of the Great Depression in 1929
> The development of the city of Gainesville (which is located on the eastern shores of Lake Lanier) into a major hub of industry and an economic and political powerhouse in exurban Northeast metro Atlanta and in the Northeast Georgia Mountains region.
Not to mention that the geographical and topographical presence of the Blue Ridge Mountains (and their function as a very early barrier of sorts to the development of transportation infrastructure from east-to-west) is what led to the original establishment and continued development and growth of Atlanta as a major ground transportation crossroads in the early-mid 19th Century.
In addition to the massive amount of suburban and exurban growth that they have helped to generate on the Northside of the Atlanta metropolitan area as an important natural geographical and topographical feature, the foothills and ranges of the Blue Ridge Mountains have also helped to generate a massive amount of overall growth, wealth and prosperity for the greater Atlanta region and North Georgia as a whole.
It’s just that because they don’t have the height and immediate geographical presence that the Rocky Mountains have in the Denver area (where the city’s location on the ‘Front Range’ eastern doorstep of the Rockies has helped to generate much growth, wealth and prosperity for the Denver area), the Blue Ridge Mountains very often do not get the credit that they are due for directly influencing Atlanta and for helping to turn Atlanta into the economic powerhouse that it has grown into.
When one thinks about Denver, one will most often think about the Rocky Mountains because the mountains are visually part of the city’s skyline and visual appeal.
But because (with the possible exception of a few low mountain peaks that may be visible from Atlanta’s downtown) Atlanta is rarely, if ever, identified with the Blue Ridge Mountains in the larger American consciousness, despite Atlanta being very heavily influenced and shaped by the presence of the Blue Ridge Mountains north of the city.
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