Streetcar East extension (Atlanta, Auburn, Jackson: lofts, neighborhoods, live)

[MattCW]

I didn't see a topic on streetcar expansion, but MARTA is sort of ramping up the planning for an extension of the existing streetcar to Ponce City Market. https://www.streetcar-east.scoutfeed...cQlm6m9hFGqfv8
If this link works, I've drawn a Google Maps of what the extension consists of based on the limited and preliminary information available: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/ed...uY&usp=sharing
In the map I drew, everything in blue is what's proposed, everything in red is what I'm suggesting, plus hypothetically sketching out the Phase 2(?) northern extension to Ansley mall. I have a few questions I sent to MARTA to be asked/answered at the public meeting on May 27th:

1. Is the alignment solely along Edgewood the final alignment, or is an alignment along Auburn under consideration? I am concerned that a westbound track would require extensive re-working of the intersection of Edgewood at Jackson St to allow for the required turn radius.

2. Also on the subject of turn radii, what is the expected situation at Irwin St and the beltline? Will the development between Sampson, Irwin, and the beltline be required to be demolished to allow the required curvature?

3. Are the station locations shown in the graphic the final locations? I have concerns with the siting of the Highland/Freedom parkway station and the Georgia Power Development station. They aren't particularly close to access points that provide greater service to the surrounding community. I feel that a station just south of North Highland avenue would have greater draw while also locating the platform along a straightaway with room for expansion. Likewise, I feel the Georgia Power station should be located closer to Ralph McGill to allow easier neighborhood access from both sides. Where it's sited in the current infographics would be great for the development and O4W park, but add nearly 600ft of walking for access from the surrounding neighborhoods. Shifting it south by 400ft or so would reduce the distance to reach the station from Ralph McGill, while not substantially increasing the distance to reach it from O4W or the development there.

4. What sorts of barricades are envisioned for separating both the RoW from the existing trail, as well as providing protection at crossing points?

5. What is the anticipated operating speed of the light rail vehicles along the beltline portion? I believe this ties in a little to question 4 above.


6. Will enhanced traffic control devices (traffic lights synchronized with the streetcar) be installed on Irwin St for the complex intersection that will be formed by the light rail, Irwin st, and Auburn ave? To me it would make sense to stop traffic on Irwin between the beltline and Auburn whenever a streetcar needs to traverse this area.

To number 6 above, if I were lord high overlord of Atlanta's transit, I'd have the lights synchronized so a streetcar would have the WB light on Irwin at the beltline and the EB light on Irwin at Auburn set to red, while the WB light at Auburn is green, maybe in concert with a right arrow from Auburn EB onto Irwin (normally no turn on red). This way traffic in between the beltline and Auburn is released to get out of the way of the streetcar, but traffic entering the intersection is held. I also really hope they don't decide to make Auburn to the beltline a section of single track thus creating a chokepoint. Streetcars should be free to pass each other anywhere on the line.

[Citykid3785]

We have a streetcar????

JK

[alco89]

All good points, MattCW.

I've often wondered about #2 in particular for years.

Can't wait to see what MARTA has to say next week.

[arjay57]

Nice work, Matt.

Is there a projected timetable for getting this built out?

[MattCW]

I want to say I heard service to PCM is targeted to begin in 2026, but we all know how that goes...

[cwkimbro]

You raise good questions. Some of these questions are just micro-level and those details would be hammered out in the engineering phase and are worthy of be raised in the meeting.

I do want to touch on your station siting comments.

I like their station siting in those two cases. Having a parallel pedestrian trail is a game changer. They aren't dependent on street intersections for access. In the case of the Georgia Power site, it looks like they are directly targeting the access trail between the Beltline and the Fourth Ward Park. the pedestrian trail, as presently built, is an at-grade crossing. The cross streets north and south are grade-separated.

This creates two things: The trains are more likely to have to extensively slow down or stop there for pedestrian crossing between the Beltline and Fourth Ward Park, so it is a natural spot to create a stop for the train to get held up less on average. However, it also opens open pedestrian accessibility to all of the developments that wrap around the park. I'd say accessibility is quite high and it is even high among people who wouldn't want to cross busier cross-streets.

North Highland is more iffy, but they are close to the Freedom Park Trail crosses/ This means they might attract more people going to/from the Little 5 Points area. If you lived at the Bass Lofts, you'd probably like the primary location. If you wanted walk into L5P, the northern station is closer. It is the difference from the northern and southern points of L5P being 0.7 miles away vs. 0.9 miles. I think it is also a more pleasant walking experience, so people might be more likely to walk a small bit further.

It is a little outside of a typical planning radius, but in this unique circumstance it might make sense. There are MARTA stations for neighborhoods to the south, but not as much L5P and neighborhoods Northeast. I believe some people will walk further to access this station, especially since L5P is such a destination in itself. Because this is stretching normal limits, I think that 0.2 miles might matter.

[architect77]

The Long Island Railroad and NJ Transit are currently testing battery/electric enables locomotives for commuter trains.

We could be on the verge of not needing a catenary which would be much less expensive and less cluttered looking too.

If batteries are pulling commuter train cars, you'd think the streetcar and light rail would be easy and doable too.

[architect77]

And the streetcar needs to be white in color. It's cooler and absorbs less heat.

And a bright color would look more current than the dark paint schemes the city has loved in the past, black busses, dark blue streetcar....

[architect77]

Isn't your red suggested extension roughly duplicating the beltline's light rail line?

I would think that entire route would take a long time to complete. With stops it would need to go 45 miles an hour to anywhere close to driving or even biking. I could be wrong though.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

You raise good questions. Some of these questions are just micro-level and those details would be hammered out in the engineering phase and are worthy of be raised in the meeting.

I do want to touch on your station siting comments.

I like their station siting in those two cases. Having a parallel pedestrian trail is a game changer. They aren't dependent on street intersections for access. In the case of the Georgia Power site, it looks like they are directly targeting the access trail between the Beltline and the Fourth Ward Park. the pedestrian trail, as presently built, is an at-grade crossing. The cross streets north and south are grade-separated.

This creates two things: The trains are more likely to have to extensively slow down or stop there for pedestrian crossing between the Beltline and Fourth Ward Park, so it is a natural spot to create a stop for the train to get held up less on average. However, it also opens open pedestrian accessibility to all of the developments that wrap around the park. I'd say accessibility is quite high and it is even high among people who wouldn't want to cross busier cross-streets.

I'm not sure about that, there are plenty of pedestrian crossings elsewhere and I don't see them slowing down a lot for them. I guess it's not too far, but I still think having a connection closer to the road is more attractive.

North Highland is more iffy, but they are close to the Freedom Park Trail crosses/ This means they might attract more people going to/from the Little 5 Points area. If you lived at the Bass Lofts, you'd probably like the primary location. If you wanted walk into L5P, the northern station is closer. It is the difference from the northern and southern points of L5P being 0.7 miles away vs. 0.9 miles. I think it is also a more pleasant walking experience, so people might be more likely to walk a small bit further.

It is a little outside of a typical planning radius, but in this unique circumstance it might make sense. There are MARTA stations for neighborhoods to the south, but not as much L5P and neighborhoods Northeast. I believe some people will walk further to access this station, especially since L5P is such a destination in itself. Because this is stretching normal limits, I think that 0.2 miles might matter.

I didn't consider the L5P connection, that's a good point. It's definitely within easy biking/scootering distance.

Originally Posted by architect77

The Long Island Railroad and NJ Transit are currently testing battery/electric enables locomotives for commuter trains.

We could be on the verge of not needing a catenary which would be much less expensive and less cluttered looking too.

If batteries are pulling commuter train cars, you'd think the streetcar and light rail would be easy and doable too.

Light rail vehicles are much smaller with far less room for batteries. Some places are playing with them, but this project has been delayed enough, we don't need to be hedging our bets on some kind of new technology. Modern catenary is unobtrusive, look at the existing streetcar. If that was truly an issue, we could look at a ground-level power supply, that IS a technology that's been in use, but somehow hasn't gained wider acceptance.

Originally Posted by architect77

Isn't your red suggested extension roughly duplicating the beltline's light rail line?

Uh...it's not "duplicating" the light rail...it IS the beltline's light rail. I just went ahead and decided to include my thoughts on the next phase on this map.

I would think that entire route would take a long time to complete. With stops it would need to go 45 miles an hour to anywhere close to driving or even biking. I could be wrong though.

Not necessarily. The current vehicles are limited to 35mph anyway. The advantage of this right of way is that the vehicles won't be caught in traffic, and won't have to make too many stops. Look at the Red/Gold line from Arts Center to Lindbergh. It's 2.7 miles on MARTA and is timetabled for 4 minutes. That's an average speed of 40mph. Google says you can't do the same trip in a car in less than 8 minutes or 20mph average speed, and having done effectively that route, at rush hour, 20 minutes is more likely.