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Old 12-09-2021, 03:02 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
I don’t understand why or how Vinings being annexed by the City of Atlanta could be a viable thing, politically and/or governmentally.

I don’t understand why an area like Vinings (which is a smaller affluent inner-suburban enclave and village area with its own unique geographical identity) would want to be annexed by either Smyrna or the City of Atlanta, which both have geographical identities, political identities, social identities, political priorities and governing priorities that are completely different from Vinings.

I also don’t understand how something like Vinings being annexed into the City of Atlanta would ever be able to become a reality when it does not at all appear that Vinings wants to be annexed into the CoA, Cobb County would never allow one of its communities to be annexed by the CoA (Cobb County government would just simply ask the Georgia Legislature to block such a move if it ever were to happen, which it most likely never would), and the City of Atlanta likely would never have any interest in annexing Vinings and taking on more suburban political problems when the CoA seemingly can’t even handle Buckhead right now.

And from a public safety and policing standpoint, I also don’t understand why Vinings would want to go from seemingly being maybe reasonably protected by a noticeably understaffed and stressed Cobb County Police Department to maybe being less protected by an undeniably severely understaffed and stressed Atlanta Police Department.

For those who would favor such a move, could someone please elaborate on why and how Vinings being annexed into the City of Atlanta would be beneficial for both Vinings and the CoA.
Makes a clear line at 285. The argument for Vinings in CofA is the same as Buckhead in the CofA. Having areas under common governance and working together. It is probably financially beneficial for CofA.

Smyrna is in Cobb County, but at this point, it is all outside 285.
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Old 12-09-2021, 03:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Makes a clear line at 285. The argument for Vinings in CofA is the same as Buckhead in the CofA. Having areas under common governance and working together. It is probably financially beneficial for CofA.

Smyrna is in Cobb County, but at this point, it is all outside 285.
Yes.
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Old 12-09-2021, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
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Also if Cumberland joined the City of Atlanta, I believe it would solve the whole MARTA issue with service to that area, which is the only part of ITP not served. I guess it would be a way to bring MARTA to at least part of Cobb, without having to have a county-wide referendum? Since I know Atlanta is its own MARTA jurisdiction with its own membership and sales tax rate, and not part of the Fulton or DeKalb MARTA tax-paying areas. Of course, both of the counties it is currently in are MARTA-participating counties.
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Old 12-09-2021, 03:48 PM
 
16,633 posts, read 29,310,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
I don’t understand why or how Vinings being annexed by the City of Atlanta could be a viable thing, politically and/or governmentally.

I don’t understand why an area like Vinings (which is a smaller affluent inner-suburban enclave and village area with its own unique geographical identity) would want to be annexed by either Smyrna or the City of Atlanta, which both have geographical identities, political identities, social identities, political priorities and governing priorities that are completely different from Vinings.

I also don’t understand how something like Vinings being annexed into the City of Atlanta would ever be able to become a reality when it does not at all appear that Vinings wants to be annexed into the CoA, Cobb County would never allow one of its communities to be annexed by the CoA (Cobb County government would just simply ask the Georgia Legislature to block such a move if it ever were to happen, which it most likely never would), and the City of Atlanta likely would never have any interest in annexing Vinings and taking on more suburban political problems when the CoA seemingly can’t even handle Buckhead right now.

And from a public safety and policing standpoint, I also don’t understand why Vinings would want to go from seemingly being maybe reasonably protected by a noticeably understaffed and stressed Cobb County Police Department to maybe being less protected by an undeniably severely understaffed and stressed Atlanta Police Department.

For those who would favor such a move, could someone please elaborate on why and how Vinings being annexed into the City of Atlanta would be beneficial for both Vinings and the CoA.

The City of Atlanta needs to annex:

Sandy Springs
North Springs
Dunwoody
current Brookhaven
North Druid Hills
Toco Hills
Oak Grove/Vista Grove
Leafmore
Lindmoor Woods
LaVista Park
Laurel Ridge
North Decatur
Scottdale
Vinings/Cumberland
Riverline
Six Flags
Emory
the rest of Druid Hills
Candler-McAfee
most of Belvedere Park
Gresham Park
Constitution/Intrenchment Creek
All of the proposed South River Park Area https://www.atlantaga.gov/home/showdocument?id=30594
Fulton Industrial
Sandtown
Cliftondale
Campbellton
Chattahoochee Hills/Rico
Rough and Ready/Mountain View


Then, City of Atlanta becomes conterminous with Fulton County. (City of Atlanta, County of Fulton is one and the same). Fulton County north of Chattahoochee is divided between Cobb (Roswell, Alpharetta, Mountain Park), Forsyth (Milton), and Gwinnett (Johns Creek). The rest of southern Fulton County is divided between Clayton (Hapeville, East Point, College Park, unincorporated College Park), Fayette (Fairburn, Union City), and Coweta (Palmetto).


Finally, the City of Atlanta (Fulton County) is divided into 17 boroughs based on the London model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_boroughs)

1. Terminus (Downtown, Sweet Auburn, Oakland, Capitol Gateway, Buttermilk Bottom, Summerhill, Mechanicsville, Thrasherville, Castleberry Hill, Luckie-Marietta, Whitehall)
2. North Fulton (Midtown, Ansley Park, Piedmont Heights, Cheshire Bridge, Martin Manor, Loring Heights, GT, Atlantic Station, Home Park)
3. East Fulton (the eastside neighborhoods)
4. West Fulton (the westside neighborhoods
5. South Fulton (the southside neighborhoods)
6. Buckhead
7. Northeast Atlanta (the current urban/suburban-esque neighborhoods in N/NW DeKalb)
8. Cross Keys (the current Brookhaven...Cross Keys is actually a better name and historically accurate...this also solves the Brookhaven neighborhood in Buckhead issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookh...eorgia#History)
9. Sandy Springs
10. Dunwoody
11. Vinings
12. Chattahoochee Vale (the current Riverline+Six Flags area of Cobb and Fulton Industrial)
13. Southwest Atlanta
14. Sandtown
15. Cliftondale
16. Campbellton
17. Chattahoochee Hills


Except for Terminus, the boroughs are also "twinned"

North Fulton-South Fulton
East Fulton-West Fulton
Buckhead-Sandtown
Northeast Atlanta-Southwest Atlanta
Sandy Springs-Cliftondale
Cross Keys-Campbellton
Dunwoody-Chattahoochee Hills
Vinings-Chattahoochee Vale (paired together as the far northwest boroughs)


In DeKalb, instead of all this "Vista Grove" and "Greenhaven" stuff...

Decatur (expanded)
Avondale Estates (expanded)
Stone Mountain (greatly expanded)
Lithonia (greatly expanded)
Clarkston (expanded)
Pine Lake (expanded just a bit)
Atlanta (annexes parts of southwest DeKalb: Gresham Park, Candler-McAfee, Near East Lake, most of Belvedere Park, Constitution, South River Park Area)

And then three new cities:

Panthersville
Redan
Arabia Mountain




(The laughable city of "Stonecrest" is divided up between Lithonia, Arabia Mountain, and Redan.)
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Old 12-10-2021, 06:59 AM
 
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Full transparency, as an East Cobb resident, I don't know all of the intricacies of the cityhood movement. I know they claim taxes won't be raised, I'm not personally certain if I believe that.

What I will say, is East Cobb does have noticeably fewer public services/amenities such as parks, sidewalks, and police when compared to the city of Marietta. It's very noticeable. It also lacks an identity. Generally people without kids and/or those not from the area have no clue where I live until I just cut to the chase and tell them Marietta or Roswell. All that despite being an area of 200K people.
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Old 12-10-2021, 07:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulch View Post
Why would we want to get involved in that mess?
Exactly.

The legal challenges surrounding a new “City of Buckhead City” municipality (if a new Buckhead City municipality is actually created) most likely will be bitter and costly and last for many years.

And Vinings does not appear to be motivated to want to transition into a governing situation that would be many times more challenging and unpleasant than the comparatively less complicated governing situation that it has now as an unincorporated area of Cobb County that is considering incorporating as a small “city-lite” municipality that offers the bare state-required minimum of three services.

(The three services that the proposed City of Vinings would offer are Planning and Zoning, Code Enforcement, and Parks and Recreation.)

More than anything else, Vinings appears to want to incorporate as a municipality to have greater localized control over its zoning and development.
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Old 12-10-2021, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aries4118 View Post
The City of Atlanta needs to annex:
And you do understand that you live in a fantasy world? (Just checking.) There is an absolute zero percent chance that Sandy Springs or Dunwoody will ever be in the city of Atlanta. Zero. And it's starting to look likely that Sandy Springs won't even border Atlanta anymore. Dunwoody already doesn't.

If we're talking hypothetical make believe alternate history land, I always thought the areas that had an Atlanta postal code address (which included Sandy Springs and Dunwoody back in the day), should have been in Atlanta. Which actually would have included a small part of Gwinnett, some of Clayton, and 30339 in Cobb. So that would have been a nice unifying thing tying together the 5 core counties.

But that was obviously not how it worked out. It is, after all, the metro of anti-unification, maximum balkanization and tribalism and kneejerk attitudes. People in the north suburbs (such as leaders in Alpharetta) actively hating on Atlanta, and people in Atlanta hating Cobb, and etc. Utter stupidity.

Like I said, I support the idea, but the chances of Cumberland becoming part of Atlanta were already very low, and if Buckhead (and Vinings) became their own cities, then it will be a zero percent chance.

So yeah, good luck with your copying/pasting, there. I know you like your nicely formatted lists.
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Old 12-10-2021, 10:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Everything was fine pre-2005, with Georgia's counties handling police and government services except for the small historic towns (and the City of Atlanta), then Sandy Springs and then Johns Creek and then the rest had to go and incorporate as "cities" for some reason, and it kicked off all this unnecessary mess across the region.
Sandy Springs had wanted to incorporate as a municipality for decades, mainly to have more and localized control over their government services, including zoning and development, code enforcement, public safety and sanitation.

But Sandy Springs (which had wanted to become a city as early as before 1960) was blocked from becoming a municipality by the old Georgia Democrats who dominated Georgia state government with a coalition of rural and urban political interests (a coalition of rural and urban political interests that was wholly unsympathetic to Sandy Springs’ drive and desires for cityhood) until the Republicans took over total control of Georgia state government in the early 2000’s.

Johns Creek and other suburban Northside areas (including Milton, Dunwoody, Peachtree Corners, etc.) wanted to incorporate for similar reasons as affluent areas seeking more and localized control over some or all government services.

Sandy Springs and (to a somewhat lesser extent) Johns Creek particularly were not the happiest with Fulton County’s control over zoning and development, which admittedly often was haphazard along the GA-9 Roswell Road commercial corridor through Sandy Springs. A particular service like garbage pick up also seemed to be a point of contention in affluent Sandy Springs neighborhoods.

Which it is not necessarily all that unusual for outlying suburban and exurban communities both larger and small to be incorporated in other large major metropolitan areas in the Northeastern quadrant of the country, particularly in and around larger major metros like Chicago, Detroit, Boston, Philadelphia and New York and even around some medium-large metros like Cincinnati and Cleveland.

What’s going here in metro Atlanta with suburban communities wanted to incorporate into municipalities just seems to be a natural outgrowth of so many unincorporated areas experiencing robust growth of population and development in larger urban counties.



Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Vinings should definitely not be a part of Smyrna (and they would never want to), and they would absolutely never be a part of Atlanta (or any city based in Fulton), whether they should be or not, which leaves remaining unincorporated, or forming a new city. With the former arrangement probably eventually becoming less viable as the rest of the county incorporates. It would be weird if East Cobb (which is just generic sprawl subdivisions suburbia) was in a city, and Vinings (which actually has historic identity and a village feel, at least in the historic area) was the only unincorporated area left in the county.

Seems to me that Vinings/Cumberland, which is the ITP section of Cobb, plus the Braves stadium area and a small section OTP (basically the 30339 zip code), could be a functional city, I guess called Vinings. I just mean on paper it could definitely be functional as far as commercial tax base and all that.

But if they exclude the Cumberland business district area (as per their proposal), then maybe that section could join the City of Atlanta? Which is only apartment/condo residential, mostly not residential, and I guess would technically bring the Braves back to Atlanta. (Technically, at least.)

Of course, that also would probably be ruined by the horrible possibility of Buckhead now splitting off and forming a new city, since that's the area of Atlanta that it borders
Cumberland becoming part of any incorporated city (either a future City of Vinings, a future City of Buckhead, or the existing City of Atlanta) most likely would not be a viable possibility for the foreseeable future.

That is because the Cumberland area (with its very large amount of commercial development and its own political representation in and very close alliance with Cobb County government in the form of the Cumberland CID/Community Improvement District) is considered to be Cobb County’s downtown business district and is a very important revenue generator for Cobb County government... So for that reason, the Cumberland area is off-limits to neighboring areas looking either to incorporate as municipalities and/or expand their corporate limits through annexation.

Plus (given their historically frosty and sometimes even downright hostile relationship with the CoA) Cobb County interests most likely would never allow the City of Atlanta to annex any land area within its borders.



Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Vinings was my last residence in GA, 2 years ago, and every one of these threads/current news out of Atlanta makes me feel glad I left, sadly. All this stuff is disappointing. "South Fulton" and its ridiculous "borders", the Buckhead secession, and all these stupid fake suburb "cities" with no historic identity as such. Part of the issue is that Georgia doesn't have any other type of municipal government besides a city.
Don’t feel disappointed. Like I noted above, the increase in suburban communities incorporating as municipalities is just a natural outgrowth of rapid growth in population and development in an urbanized area.

It’s just that the movement for unincorporated suburban communities to incorporate into municipalities did not get to metro Atlanta until after the turn of the Millennium where as incorporated suburban communities (in the form of cities, townships, boroughs, towns, home rule municipalities, independent cities, etc.) in highly populated urban areas has been a thing in other parts of the country (particularly in the aforementioned northeastern quadrant of the US) for decades.
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Old 12-10-2021, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
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Well, actually, let me be more specific.

Sandy Springs, I'm fine with, as there is some historical and local identity at least in the area around Roswell Rd and Hammond. And the borders are logical enough. Rivers and county lines are always a good boundary.

Dunwoody, similarly, there's at least history as a community with the area around Mt Vernon. And its borders are logical, it's just the northern tip of DeKalb County, outside of I-285.

Though, with those 2, the "Dunwoody panhandle"/ Spalding area is a weird situation, with that segment being in Fulton, but with historic identity as Dunwoody. Shame that DeKalb was shortened at one point so that it no longer extended to the river.

Johns Creek, I'm fine with it, but it had no real historical community identity, it was always just Alpharetta and Duluth, depending on which zip code you were in.

Milton, seems to me could have just been the quiet part of Alpharetta. I'm not really sure why that had to be a "city".

Peachtree Corners, I don't see how all that whole westernmost area of Gwinnett couldn't have just been the city of Norcross, which has history and identity and a real downtown. I think the non-river borders of it are ugly, and extend way too far down, to Buford Hwy, including all those areas that should have been part of Norcross. It was a land grab.

Brookhaven, much of that really could have been in Atlanta, especially since the historic Brookhaven community of Atlanta is literally split down the middle of it. It's a weird skinny shape for a city, only 2 miles wide between Buckhead and Chamblee. They should have gotten the Century Center area at least, which went to Chamblee. And the part of Brookhaven that extends south of I-85 to Briarcliff is ridiculous. That area definitely should have been Atlanta. I-85 at least was a sort of natural border for that "city".

Tucker, the city makes sense, but the borders don't. It goes a little bit ITP just because they wanted commercial areas around Northlake, it extends out east of Stone Mountain, and strangely it doesn't include the Evans Rd/ Chamblee-Tucker area. Tucker should have extended up to I-85, but Smoke Rise to the east should have been its own community.

"Stonecrest" and that whole area should have been Lithonia. They like named 1/4 of the area of DeKalb after a stupid generic 2001 suburban shopping mall with an H&M and a Sunglass Hut.

"South Fulton" is an abomination. The "borders", the name (which almost was even worse), and just how the whole south part of Fulton ended up is ridiculous. Chattahoochee Hills, fine, whatever, I accepted that. But the rest of the area could have been split logically into the historic cities of Atlanta, East Point, College Park, Union City, Fairburn, Palmetto, and you could have created a new city of Campbellton (with some actual history) out along the river at Hwy 92. The Fulton Industrial area at least down to Camp Creek should have been Atlanta.
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Old 12-10-2021, 03:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Well, actually, let me be more specific.

Sandy Springs, I'm fine with, as there is some historical and local identity at least in the area around Roswell Rd and Hammond. And the borders are logical enough. Rivers and county lines are always a good boundary.

Dunwoody, similarly, there's at least history as a community with the area around Mt Vernon. And its borders are logical, it's just the northern tip of DeKalb County, outside of I-285.

Though, with those 2, the "Dunwoody panhandle"/ Spalding area is a weird situation, with that segment being in Fulton, but with historic identity as Dunwoody. Shame that DeKalb was shortened at one point so that it no longer extended to the river.

Johns Creek, I'm fine with it, but it had no real historical community identity, it was always just Alpharetta and Duluth, depending on which zip code you were in.

Milton, seems to me could have just been the quiet part of Alpharetta. I'm not really sure why that had to be a "city".
From what I understand, one of the biggest motivations for Johns Creek to incorporate as a municipality was a strong desire by local residents to have much more of an emphasis of zoning and permitting upscale types of development than Fulton County.

Milton became its own city because it wanted to emphasize large detached single-family homes on large land lots throughout much of its land area in its zoning and development permitting practices, while the neighboring City of Alpharetta emphasizes significantly heavier commercial and residential development patterns in its zoning and permitting practices.



Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Peachtree Corners, I don't see how all that whole westernmost area of Gwinnett couldn't have just been the city of Norcross, which has history and identity and a real downtown. I think the non-river borders of it are ugly, and extend way too far down, to Buford Hwy, including all those areas that should have been part of Norcross. It was a land grab.
While Peachtree Corners and Norcross proper share common borders, are basically adjoined to each other and share a school cluster (the Norcross High School/Paul Duke High School cluster of schools in the Gwinnett County Public Schools system), Peachtree Corners and Norcross proper are two different communities with completely different identities.

P’tree Corners is a sprawling suburban community with virtually no development that predates 1970 and most development being built in the 1980’s and the 1990’s, while Norcross is a largely compact established city (and railroad town) with a historic downtown village area built around a historic stop on a railroad line.

Also, P’tree Corners long had its own neighborhood governing apparatus (the UPCCA or United Peachtree Corners Civic Association) that provided strong representation for the area in Gwinnett County and even Georgia state government affairs before P’tree Corners incorporated as a ‘city-lite’ municipality in 2012.

While the existing and established City of Norcross proper (which has existed as an incorporated municipality since 1870) seems to have had little interest in being responsible for governing much of anything outside of its existing 6 square mile land area.

P’tree Corners and Norcross proper are two different communities with two totally different sets of governing priorities.



Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Brookhaven, much of that really could have been in Atlanta, especially since the historic Brookhaven community of Atlanta is literally split down the middle of it. It's a weird skinny shape for a city, only 2 miles wide between Buckhead and Chamblee. They should have gotten the Century Center area at least, which went to Chamblee. And the part of Brookhaven that extends south of I-85 to Briarcliff is ridiculous. That area definitely should have been Atlanta. I-85 at least was a sort of natural border for that "city".
The current City of Brookhaven likely did not want to annex into the neighboring City of Atlanta because Brookhaven has its own individual governing priorities (particularly when it comes to redevelopment, but also when it comes to zoning, development permitting, public safety and sanitation) that may not be completely compatible with the CoA and/or DeKalb County government.



Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
Tucker, the city makes sense, but the borders don't. It goes a little bit ITP just because they wanted commercial areas around Northlake, it extends out east of Stone Mountain, and strangely it doesn't include the Evans Rd/ Chamblee-Tucker area. Tucker should have extended up to I-85, but Smoke Rise to the east should have been its own community.
Tucker’s motivation for incorporating as a municipality appeared to be that it wanted to pay much more attention to redeveloping and upgrading its historic downtown railroad village area than DeKalb County government might have been able to provide.



Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
"Stonecrest" and that whole area should have been Lithonia. They like named 1/4 of the area of DeKalb after a stupid generic 2001 suburban shopping mall with an H&M and a Sunglass Hut.
The City of Lithonia proper has a history of having a significant amount of dysfunction in its municipal government. So joining Lithonia proper most likely was not an option for a Stonecrest area that desires to help the Mall of Stonecrest area remain a viable retail district (during a time of extreme (apocalyptic) contraction in bricks-and-mortar retail) while also desiring to attract upscale retail to the area along with affluent residents and more commercial development.



Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech View Post
"South Fulton" is an abomination. The "borders", the name (which almost was even worse), and just how the whole south part of Fulton ended up is ridiculous. Chattahoochee Hills, fine, whatever, I accepted that. But the rest of the area could have been split logically into the historic cities of Atlanta, East Point, College Park, Union City, Fairburn, Palmetto, and you could have created a new city of Campbellton (with some actual history) out along the river at Hwy 92. The Fulton Industrial area at least down to Camp Creek should have been Atlanta.
The incorporation of South Fulton mostly seems to be in response to annexation moves and attempts by neighboring municipalities (including Fairburn, Union City, Palmetto and the City of Atlanta proper) to incorporate as a municipality before existing neighboring municipalities grabbed off what commercial land was left in South Fulton County.

Though, the State of Georgia did allow the City of South Fulton to annex the revenue-generating industrial/commercial land along the Fulton Industrial Boulevard corridor, which was the last remaining piece of unincorporated land in Fulton County. (The City of Atlanta had wanted to annex that area for decades, but the State of Georgia would not allow the CoA to annex that land along FIB).

The City of South Fulton was the last remaining unincorporated area to incorporate into a municipality in Fulton County.
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