What's blocking the expansion of rail mass transit? (Atlanta, Savannah: home, buy)

[SEAandATL]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Lol. The Beltline is literally a rail line. It doesn't even have a road.

I swear, MARTA would downgrade Amtrak to BRT if it could.

It was technically abandoned rail that probably couldn't be upgraded so it got paved over to make the bike baths. It wouldn't be too bad if it was an electric bus like the one proposed for the path in the Battery/Galleria area. With BRT in general, if it were all electric buses with 2 if not 4 or more cars in tandem then it would be more like a train with rubber wheels.

We don't really have Amtrak service that's worth going anywhere, with only one departure in each direction. There used to be a train line to Savanah (Nancy Hank) until about 50 years ago. That's where we need a HSR line the most.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Lol. The Beltline is literally a rail line. It doesn't even have a road.
I swear, MARTA would downgrade Amtrak to BRT if it could.

https://www.atlantamagazine.com/news...anta-beltline/

December 1999
Georgia Tech grad student Ryan Gravel submits a master’s thesis describing a “belt line” loop of multiuse trails and transit along 22 miles of railroad corridor.
City Council President Cathy Woolard soon champions the idea.

23 years later...
[crickets chirping]

(In case you missed it, the point is that giving government the revenue and authority to administer the infrastructure inevitably means delays, cost overruns, stalls, and political grandstanding. If the private sector was allowed, the Beltline could have been built and in operation decades ago.)


PASSENGER RAIL IN CHINA
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/c...cmd/index.html

At the beginning of the 21st century China had no high-speed railways.
Slow and often uncomfortable trains plodded across this vast country, with low average speeds making journeys such as Shanghai-Beijing a test of travel endurance.
Today, it's a completely different picture. The world's most populous nation has -- by some distance -- the world's largest network of high-speed railways.
No fewer than 37,900 kilometers (about 23,500 miles) of lines crisscross the country, linking all of its major mega-city clusters, and all have been completed since 2008.

Half of that total has been completed in the last five years alone, with a further 3,700 kilometers due to open in the coming months of 2021.
The network is expected to double in length again, to 70,000 kilometers, by 2035.
With maximum speeds of 350 kph (217 mph) on many lines, intercity travel has been transformed and the dominance of airlines has been broken on the busiest routes.
By 2020, 75% of Chinese cities with a population of 500,000 or more had a high-speed rail ink.

[jetgraphics]

Embarrassing to watch - especially the parts about snail like progress of American HSR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=belm4kDAHgM

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

If the private sector was allowed, the Beltline could have been built and in operation decades ago.)

And it would still be completely open to the public, and free to use? Funded by whom exactly, and why? Theoretical generosity?

And what if the private party that owned the Beltline ROW in your fantasy, decided to never build anything on it, sorta like how John Dewberry does with his prime properties in Midtown?

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by primaltech

And it would still be completely open to the public, and free to use? Funded by whom exactly, and why? Theoretical generosity?
And what if the private party that owned the Beltline ROW in your fantasy, decided to never build anything on it, sorta like how John Dewberry does with his prime properties in Midtown?

If you don't believe that "they" keep us down, consider this:
= > > Auto / Oil / Pavement Hegemony < < =

In 1963, Alweg proposed to the city of Los Angeles a monorail system that would be designed, built, operated and maintained by Alweg. Alweg promised to take all financial risk from the construction, and the system would be repaid through fares collected. The City Council rejected the proposal in favor of no transit at all... thanks to the pressure from Standard Oil (Exxon, today).
“A former Alweg engineer once told me that there was much excitement for the proposal at the time, that is until Standard Oil got involved. Practically overnight support for the project disappeared amongst LA politicians.”

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/LA1963.html
http://la.curbed.com/archives/2012/0..._monorails.php

When it comes to rail, "they" will fight it tooth and nail.
Follow the money. Look who is funding the politicians, and keeping them "bought."
Then you'll know why America ceased being the world's leader in rail transportation, and now overshadowed by China.

[primaltech]

What the hell are you talking about? You didn't even answer my question.

[Atlanta-Native]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

If you don't believe that "they" keep us down, consider this:
= > > Auto / Oil / Pavement Hegemony < < =

In 1963, Alweg proposed to the city of Los Angeles a monorail system that would be designed, built, operated and maintained by Alweg. Alweg promised to take all financial risk from the construction, and the system would be repaid through fares collected. The City Council rejected the proposal in favor of no transit at all... thanks to the pressure from Standard Oil (Exxon, today).
“A former Alweg engineer once told me that there was much excitement for the proposal at the time, that is until Standard Oil got involved. Practically overnight support for the project disappeared amongst LA politicians.”

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/LA1963.html
http://la.curbed.com/archives/2012/0..._monorails.php

When it comes to rail, "they" will fight it tooth and nail.
Follow the money. Look who is funding the politicians, and keeping them "bought."
Then you'll know why America ceased being the world's leader in rail transportation, and now overshadowed by China.

You've got waaay too much time on your hands.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Embarrassing to watch - especially the parts about snail like progress of American HSR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=belm4kDAHgM

Not really. China, while physically larger than the US, has all of its major cities setup in a way where high speed rail could reasonably be setup between cities. In the US, high speed rail of this sort is really on practical in a corridor fashion and even then it wouldn’t be as expansive as China or Europe. Think the northeast corridor, south Florida, the Texas triangle, the Great Lakes cities, and between the Bay Area and Southern California. Outside of that there are significant challenges to building a HSR network like not having big and close enough cities to each other to make it make sense.

While I think a HSR corridor through Atlanta that went to Birmingham to Charlotte and/or a route to Savannah would be very popular, but not enough to justify the costs. Why? Because after those cities there is nothing but small towns and nothingness until you get to either New Orleans, DC, Miami, Houston, or Chicago depending on which direction going. While all are worthy destinations, even with HSR it would take a significant amount of time to travel via train even at high speeds to those cities from here. For that alone, the no brained is still air travel for most people. Especially when traveling by air from Atlanta to most cities east of the Rockies is 2 to 3 hours at most, and under 2 hours for a large amount.

Don’t get me wrong, but there are a lot more factors as to why the US doesn’t have a continental wide HSR network than just lack of foresight. It just isn’t practical with current technologies and the cost to do it on that scale.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Incorrect.
ZERO TAXES / ZERO SUBSIDIES.

Let private enterprise take over, like it did BEFORE the "tax bomb" was dropped in 1913 ("income tax").

Remember, between 1890 - 1920, privately owned and operated urban rail mass transit was booming. Capital was being invested. Tracks were laid. Networks were expanding. Power plants were being constructed. (And "Trolley Parks" / Amusement parks were also being built by these "greedy" capitalists)

Why did TAXES cause their demise?
Most, if not all, urban rail mass transit were forced to CAP THEIR FARES, by government decree. When the taxes were increased, while fares were frozen, guess what happened?
Companies struggled to maintain their systems, performance dropped, and eventually they were either bought out by National City Lines (conspirators) or taken over by "magnanimous" Progressive governments.

Yeah, rail was deliberately killed... so the "Road gang" would gain ascendancy by their virtual monopoly. And here we are today, with few options, and trapped into the most expensive form of land transportation.

Lol, no. First off, I don’t have enough time to describe all the ways modern capitalists differ from 19th century ones but let’s just say the only thing they have in common is being rich. Also, I’d be interested in such a proposal if there was an American version of this that wasn’t a bunch of hyper loop or autonomous vehicle BS. We don’t need ground breaking technologies or whimsical ideas. Trains and buses have proven to get the job done. We just need leadership and prioritize refunding efforts into public transit. Government run transit isn’t the problem, government transit controlled by corporate stooges trying to get their buddies richer is. That also would take a lot more time to discuss than this medium could reasonably allow.

[jetgraphics]

In support of my assertion that government is the problem - - -

The American people are suffering a tax load (44.4%) that is over twice that of Communist China (18.9%). The beneficiaries of that tax load will never willingly give up their wealth and power, not unlike the Communist Party. And will rely on any means, fair and foul, to keep things the way they are, regardless of the consequences.

US Per Capita Government Spending for 2022 - Charts>
2022 GDP: $23.499 T, U.S. population : 332.3 M, Per Capita : $70,716.22

● Federal spending, per capita : $18,090.2 (percentage of GDP: 25.5%)
● State spending, per capita : $ 6,931.7 (percentage of GDP: 9.8%)
● Local spending, per capita : $ 6,487.7 (percentage of GDP: 9.1%)

Summed up, combined government spending takes (approx) 44.4% of the GDP.
= = = = = =
PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF CHINA
In 2018, the share of tax revenue in GDP was 18.9 percent.