What's blocking the expansion of rail mass transit? (Commerce, Buckhead: neighborhood, taxes)

[SEAandATL]

Originally Posted by beach43ofus

what's blocking expansion of rail mass transit?

NIMBY, & Billions more of gov't handouts than MARTA is already getting, because rail mass transit is a cash sucking pig.

That's why rail mass transit should be privatized like it is in Japan or Florida's Brightline. We pay too much taxes as it is and get nothing out of it.

[primaltech]

You get nothing out of it because you don't pay for it. MARTA is mostly funded by a rather miniscule 1-penny sales tax in only 3 counties, and the rest of its funding (I'm not sure the percentage, maybe close to half), is from rider fare and advertisements. So, not taxes.

If it was instead a penny in the whole 13-county ATL metro area, or better yet a 2-penny sales tax in 13 counties, or something equivalent to that level, like it should be- then you could have a comprehensive commuter rail network, an expanded heavy rail and light rail network, much better bus services, etc. All these things. A lot more people could get a lot more use out of MARTA, if it was actually allowed to thrive and serve its metro area.

Public services aren't free. Nothing is free. You have to pay for things to get them. What a brand new concept, apparently that people in this thread haven't heard of. What's blocking the expansion of rail mass transit? The fact that its supposed advocates are still confused about the simple fact that mass transit, especially metro systems, are in fact not even close to profitable, and that you're suggesting all these different hypothetical nice things without a suggestion on how to pay for it, as if it could just happen magically. Almost every single transit system in the world loses money, especially in the US, and has to be subsidized by taxes. Period, full stop. You want more of it, you want it to be better? You have to raise taxes.

Brightline is, first of all, not a metro system. And it is literally *the* only privately owned and operated intercity passenger railroad in the United States. It is only possible and profitable because A) They have a unique arrangement with freight companies that own most of those railways, B) They get certain tax exemptions and other advantages, and of course, the big one, C) Its fares range from $10-$30 one-way, so, a two-way trip can cost as much as $60 fare. Obviously MARTA or an agency that actually has to serve all of the public of a metro area (including poor communities) can't do anything at all like that.

I'm not knocking Brightline, I think it's cool, and I hope to see more things like that. Maybe that's the way inter-city passenger rail should be handled across the country. Maybe even a smaller scale version could function as commuter rail within a region, hypothetically. I'm all for it. But again, that's a totally different thing than a metro transit system. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Also, again, even Tokyo, the one always cited as profitable, is NOT profitable. The companies that own them are profitable, from the real estate that they also own. The rail infrastructure part of the business is part of the profit picture, but not the part of the business that actually makes the profit. So again, it's a special case. The transportation and circulation of mass amounts of people is not generally profitable, unless you're able to charge a high fare, and you still get lots of ridership with the high fare.

Anyway, if you privatized public transit, it wouldn't really be public transit anymore. It would be private transit. The buses would have no obligations to serve any communities, so would abandon whole areas and would only serve certain routes that could generate profit with high fare.

[Prickly Pear]

Why is there not a light rail on Peachtree? Yes I realize MARTA already runs quite a bit on Peachtree, but there seem to be significant gaps. I see a light rail being possible with a northern terminus near the Brookhaven gold stop, following Peachtree all the way down to getting to the northern reaches of Midtown, then cutting west on 17th street to hit Atlantic Station and West Midtown, then head downtown from there going to the Georgia Aquarium and further into Downtown somewhere. Buckhead Village seems to be of itself kinda far from it's red and gold stations near the mall there, and that road still seems to have a significant number of high rises and apartment/condos which would at a minimum support a dedicated-lane Light Rail Transit or Bus Rapid Transit, even though the Red/Gold lines seem to be kinda far away preferring to follow the I-85 instead. While Lindbergh station seems to have a fair bit of density near it's station, Peachtree itself still does too. What good options exist for someone say, getting off at the red Buckhead station and needing to get to an office at Peachtree and Pharr? The fact that it appears to be a normal bus line sitting in what is probably heavy car traffic without a dedicated lane in such a dense area is rather appalling. Such a line would serve as a great complimentary system to the existing heavy rail, with connections to MARTA at numerous places, and would help some highly developing areas like Atlantic Station, West Midtown, and Georgia Tech. And if it were to continue to go into Downtown, it may even connect to the Blue and Green lines of MARTA, like say if it went to the CNN or Vine City stations, not only reinforce Atlanta's existing dense "spine" but also widen it in it's cores of DT and Midtown, and may encourage more growth in Buckhead itself. And it would also relieve Five Points as a center for connections, which is important in any transit system to diversify where it has connections.



Not only that, such a light rail would better connect the City of Atlanta to it's Amtrak station. If it went to Vine City, it could have a station to what appears to be a collection of universities there, and terminate at the West End MARTA station or perhaps go further west. Or it went to the CNN station, the line could even traverse southeast towards the Parc stadium, which may be beneficial as SE Atlanta appears to be a transit desert in comparison. If it goes to the SE, it may even be able to go to the Zoo.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by primaltech

... if you privatized public transit, it wouldn't really be public transit anymore. It would be private transit. The buses would have no obligations to serve any communities, so would abandon whole areas and would only serve certain routes that could generate profit with high fare.

I disagree. Private transit does not carry passengers for hire.

Public transit - a public transportation system for moving passengers.

There is no implication that it is synonymous with government funded transit. In fact, taxis are considered public transit, though definitely not operated by government.

Privatization is important, because businesses only make higher profits by serving more passengers, not receiving more government subsidies (at taxpayer expense).

AS to making a profit, do you not want to be paid for your efforts at work? Of course not. So why castigate enterprises that seek to make a profit providing a service? The "Progressives" appropriated private transit over the decades and we all can see how well they did. Partisan politics and bureaucracy is a lousy way to operate services.

Frankly, there is NO LOGICAL WAY that a government funded operation will ever operate cheaper, better, or faster than private enterprise.

• Customer $ => Private Enterprise
• Taxpayer $ => Government (deducts a portion) $ => Transit Authority => Service (partially reimbursed by fares)

In the first instance, the enterprise wants to please the customer. In the latter, the government is not obligated to please the customer, since he's not the source of the funds - the taxpayer is. (And to keep in power, the political party in power has to placate them first)
It's similar to the difference between private and public funded schools.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

Why is there not a light rail on Peachtree?

1) It was part of the ambitious general streetcar plan, but NIMBY's in Buckhead actively rejected it and got it taken out (citing traffic or whatever, I dunno, usual stupidity)

2) The initial little loop had to compete for and get federal funds, which in order to receive that required it to go thru a rough neighborhood (Sweet Auburn). So, the usual politics reasons and such

3) The other half of the line, that would not run thru Buckhead, would be kind of duplicative with the heavy rail line running thru Downtown/Midtown (not really, since they're different types of modes, but that was the argument)

Anyway, I agree, I think that would be a rather perfect streetcar line, thru actual density to support it, but if necessary for cost reasons I'd also settle for Gold quality BRT for that route, running in dedicated lanes in the median of the street (not the side lanes).

It could start somewhere around Downtown, then probably run thru Midtown on Spring and West Peachtree streets, so it can have that direct connection with the MARTA stations. Then run all the way up Peachtree Rd into DeKalb, with only key stops at the best locations. You could even have it terminate as far as Doraville at the Assembly development, but definitely Brookhaven would be a good turnaround spot, or maybe at Oglethorpe University.

It would replace that 110 bus route with true BRT, and you could also have a similar line that replaces the 5 bus, which runs from Lindbergh to Sandy Springs via Piedmont and Roswell roads. With a nice transfer point where those 2 connect at Peachtree@Piedmont.

[primaltech]

I think it would be really cool if they could redesign the surface part of the Buckhead MARTA station, to be like a structure or canopy over Peachtree Rd:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8472...7i16384!8i8192

Whether it's bus-based or light rail, the Peachtree Rd corridor thru Buckhead needs something more than a basic bus route that runs in mixed traffic and in the right lane, with all the associated delays. The corridor could easily support high capacity transit, if the stations were spaced accordingly at key spots.

[aries4118]

Peachtree Trolley

1. Start at Arts Center Station or at newly-constructed infill Peachtree Pointe Station.
2. Goes north on Peachtree Street/Road to Brookhaven Station.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Frankly, there is NO LOGICAL WAY that a government funded operation will ever operate cheaper, better, or faster than private enterprise.

For everyone? For the transit-dependent, poor people in rougher neighborhoods? You're telling me they would get their own bus routes and the $2.50 low fares just like MARTA provides now, if there was no government or political involvement? (Or more like you're telling me that you don't care.)

Brightline (the one example of private ground transit) works because it only serves wealthy and lucrative South Florida communities and destinations, like West Palm Beach, downtown Miami, and they're planning stations for the Orlando airport and the Disney resort. They're not gonna make a line that spurs off to go serve bad neighborhoods, because, that would not be profitable.

They're also making a line to connect Los Angeles and Las Vegas, with basically no stops. They're basically like an airplane service on the ground, for medium distances, at cheaper fare than a plane would be. They are not a metro system, and again, they have no obligations to serve any areas, so they can cherry pick.

I'm all for entertaining the idea of privatizing transit, but you seem to want to just ignore any tough questions, in favor of your usual regurgitation of canned platitudes about "GOVERNMENT BAD MMKAY"

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Peachtree Trolley

1. Start at Arts Center Station or at newly-constructed infill Peachtree Pointe Station.

This station has a less than zero chance of happening due to the difficulty of digging out an infill station underground and the geometry of the tunnel segment making it infeasible for a station at that location.

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by aries4118

infill Peachtree Pointe Station.

I think that was determined not feasible to put a station there, because of the track incline.