What's blocking the expansion of rail mass transit? (Atlanta, Sandy Springs: sales, crime)

[jetgraphics]

Atlanta's history as a hub of many railroad lines begs the question : WHAT is blocking the implementation of interurban commuter service to the many bedroom communities?
There are rail lines radiating from Atlanta to NW, NE, E, W, etc., passing through many communities.
If commuters had a rail option, imagine the reduction in traffic jams?

Commuter Trains from New York City to New Haven, CT cover 69 miles (111 km). If a 69 mile radius circle was drawn around downtown Atlanta, and moderately high speed commuter trains ran, I bet a lot of folks would park the car, and take the train. . . especially for day trips. Save a bundle on parking, too.

I think businesses might also support shuttle bus service to and from the nearest station, for their employees and visitors. If a business is too small, perhaps it would partner with other small businesses to run a shuttle.

It may take more time, but if one could sit back and enjoy the ride, eat a meal, surf the web, or watch a movie, it would be more pleasant than fighting congestion. I bet trains could easily provide wi-fi service.

Can we get Atlanta "back on track"?

[Gulch]

In a nutshell a lack of:

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by Gulch

In a nutshell a lack of:
mmmmmmmunny.

I don' think so, Lucy...
IMHO, when "they" want something done, it gets done, including the financing.
Which raises the question again, what's blocking it?
I know that certain interests blocked mass transit & MARTA from dipping into the surrounding counties, for decades.
. . . .
And it's an easy solution to find financing for rail mass transit - offer tax exemptions to any company, business, and employees who build, install, service and / or run mass transit... including zero property taxes on the rights of way.

Not one dime of public funds.
And the rail companies only make a profit when they move passengers from "A" to "B".
We'll have a robust rail system in a "New York Minute" (or reasonable facsimile thereof).
. . . .
Look at how tax breaks lured the Movie and TV industry to Hot 'Lanta?
Shucks, we may even lure train manufacturers here, for the tax breaks.
. . . .
There's no need for partisan battles to "not take taxes". Just get government out of the way.

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Atlanta's history as a hub of many railroad lines begs the question : WHAT is blocking the implementation of interurban commuter service to the many bedroom communities?
There are rail lines radiating from Atlanta to NW, NE, E, W, etc., passing through many communities.
If commuters had a rail option, imagine the reduction in traffic jams?

Commuter Trains from New York City to New Haven, CT cover 69 miles (111 km). If a 69 mile radius circle was drawn around downtown Atlanta, and moderately high speed commuter trains ran, I bet a lot of folks would park the car, and take the train. . . especially for day trips. Save a bundle on parking, too.

I think businesses might also support shuttle bus service to and from the nearest station, for their employees and visitors. If a business is too small, perhaps it would partner with other small businesses to run a shuttle.

It may take more time, but if one could sit back and enjoy the ride, eat a meal, surf the web, or watch a movie, it would be more pleasant than fighting congestion. I bet trains could easily provide wi-fi service.

Can we get Atlanta "back on track"?

Good stuff.


Read this:

Envisioning a New Rail Hub for Atlanta: Part III
Track Twenty-Nine: Envisioning a New Rail Hub for Atlanta: Part III

[T Block]

The best opportunities are, College Park to Palmetto for commuters in Newnan and Peachtree City, East Point to Lovejoy for commuters in Fayetteville and McDonough, and North Sandy Springs to Roswell.

But the urban planners can't stand anything that doesn't check-off all the premised features and so they can't stand the idea of a change of trains being required. But a medium-weight monorail connecting to the heavy-rail MARTA system would be more affordable.

[dtyfygiu]

Originally Posted by T Block

The best opportunities are, College Park to Palmetto for commuters in Newnan and Peachtree City, East Point to Lovejoy for commuters in Fayetteville and McDonough, and North Sandy Springs to Roswell.

But the urban planners can't stand anything that doesn't check-off all the premised features and so they can't stand the idea of a change of trains being required. But a medium-weight monorail connecting to the heavy-rail MARTA system would be more affordable.

Don't understand MARTA's obsession with wanting to expand into low density suburbia. MARTA is not commuter rail. It should be focused on expanding to the beltline, north druid hills/emory area, west midtown area, and other dense city areas.

[bryantm3]

It's basically a perfect storm of dysfunction.

Since the 70s there has been a battle between Atlanta and the suburbs, and Atlanta and the state government. Unlike New York, Georgia doesn't fund or manage transit in any meaningful way. It's up to MARTA for Fulton and DeKalb (and recently Clayton) and the individual counties to come up with their own solutions. There is a lot of balkanization in Atlanta, too- only about 10% of the metro lives in the city limits, and the rest is divided up between individual cities or are unincorporated areas managed by the counties.

A lot of this is race and class based. People with money or racial resentments like having areas that are impossible to access without a car. It's like imposing a tax to enter certain areas.

Then, you've got MARTA itself. Due to the car-centric layout of Atlanta, MARTA knows that they have a "captive ridership" that has no other choice but to use the service, and they treat the riders as an underclass.

Some examples from the past few years:
They removed benches next to bus stops that are crucial for elderly and disabled people to use the service, because someone saw a homeless person sleeping on one once.
They remind you that assaulting MARTA employees will get you 20 years in prison everytime you get on board.
They closed the bathrooms in many stations, and don't clean the stations.
They don't take public input on what the riders would prefer, and whenever they do ask for input, they ignore what everyone is telling them and make a different decision.
They conned voters in Clayton County into adopting a sales tax, with the promise of giving them a rail line, and then downgraded it into a bus line that targets several communties of "captive riders" who have no choice but to use the service.

Generally they do everything in their power to dissuade people who have a choice from using the service, and then treat their riders who don't like they are on prison transport.

[primaltech]

Money/lack of taxes to raise it, are the main thing blocking it. They don't like a lot of taxes around there. Lack of enough will of the majority of the people to raise their own taxes, for things they don't really think they'd want or need (because they drive everywhere), or that might even be a negative or detrimental thing for their community (according to their Boomer perceptions), and so therefore a lack of (mostly Republican) elected officials to heavily support or push for it. Might be changing a little bit with more Democrats in power in the suburbs, and when there's a Democratic governor, but I wouldn't expect too much.

Racial/cultural/urban/crime related fears are a factor still as well, but probably not as much as in the past. Areas like East Cobb have resentment towards all things Atlanta/MARTA. Alpharetta leadership is in MARTA territory but blocked heavy rail coming up that way as was planned.

50 years ago, it would have been at least half or mostly paid for by the federal government, and heavy rail was cheaper to build, land and materials were a lot cheaper, etc. So back then, there was a lot of NIMBY and cultural/fear opposition type blockage, and that was a heavier factor, along with money.

Now days, if it was that cheap, then culturally it could probably happen. But since there's only a lukewarm support for it by maybe 50% of the electorate (with those really passionate about the issue at much less), and it's super expensive (heavy rail especially), and would require tons of funds to be raised just for modest expansions, it's a tough issue to get pushed through. Also, once the funding is passed, the first station isn't usually open for another full decade. Construction takes forever and causes a lot of displacement, etc.

I think the heavy rail aspect of the MARTA system is kind of a shame, as it seems to be so ridiculously expensive to build, these days. Cities that have newer light rail systems (such as Dallas), and cities with modern commuter rail (Denver RTD), can get more bang for their buck with expansions.

That said, if MARTA had the funds to purchase the ROW necessary, then they could build cheaper extensions mostly at the surface, with much cheaper and smaller and simpler stations than their old existing ones.

Underground and elaborate stations like Five Points and Peachtree Center, in today's dollars and construction costs, would probably cost like $250 million each. It's ridiculous, but true. Plus building the track and acquiring the property and the extra trains and maintenance, and all the other costs involved.

[primaltech]

Also, a sales tax (which is how MARTA has always been funded) doesn't really generate enough money. Metro Atlanta would really need probably $100 billion to build out the multi-modal rail network that they'd really need. Or maybe $50 billion. (Sound Transit here in Seattle passed the ST3 measure for $50 billion transit investment, but Atlanta is a larger metro.)

That's why the emphasis is always on buses now, because they're cheaper. But, of course, the quality of the transit suffers.

[dtyfygiu]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Also, a sales tax (which is how MARTA has always been funded) doesn't really generate enough money. Metro Atlanta would really need probably $100 billion to build out the multi-modal rail network that they'd really need. Or maybe $50 billion. (Sound Transit here in Seattle passed the ST3 measure for $50 billion transit investment, but Atlanta is a larger metro.)

That's why the emphasis is always on buses now, because they're cheaper. But, of course, the quality of the transit suffers.

MARTA buses suck man. There's a reason MARTA has a stigma for being for the lower class and poor, and it doesn't have to do with racism. It's not that way in cities like NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly, DC, Seattle, etc. Taking transit is apart of life in those cities. We need to focus on 1. Updating our current stations. Most current MARTA stations look like crap, exterior wise and with the surroundings. The Lindbergh and Decatur stops are probably the only two decent ones. 2. Expanding the rail. Buses aren't gonna change anything. Maybe BRT, but thats a minor change.