Should 400 and 316 have been built as 3-digit Interstate spur routes? (Atlanta: schools, tax)

[Datdudebrah]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Lenox Rd does something kind of like that at one point, right here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8510.../data=!3m1!1e3

Keep the intersection in place, but give the more major road a couple of underpass straight-through lanes, bypassing underneath the intersection.

I like that a lot. Minimal displacement, too. That really could be the solution for the metro right there.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wo8rg1qYm5ghfBvM7

Here's one in Seoul

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by Datdudebrah

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wo8rg1qYm5ghfBvM7

Here's one in Seoul

Oh that is absolutely gorgeous. And with no additional footprint over what an at-grade intersection would be.

Assuming the funding was there, there's no reason Metro ATL couldn't do a hundred of those all around, essentially converting the existing major arterials into semi-freeways (or parkways), and theoretically allowing a re-configured GA-20 (even including the busy Buford Dr section of at the Mall of GA) to function as an outer perimeter freeway. By having at least 2 lanes in each direction that always continuously flow. And the improving the interchanges with the existing interstates, and 400.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Isn't 316 built to interstate standards?

No. Even with new interchanges at Harbins Road and GA 81, and interchanges under construction at GA 11 and GA 53, it still has 27 at-grade crossings, including nine signalized at-grade crossings. Also, the exterior shoulders are substandard. It's going to take a decade to upgrade GA 316 to proper Interstate standards.

Originally Posted by primaltech

I-85 was originally supposed to roughly parallel US 29, which would have connected Atlanta -> Lawrenceville -> Athens -> Greenville, in a far more logical routing that would have made a lot more sense, connecting the University of GA, an increasingly major university with a national significance. Also connecting Gwinnett's county seat much like I-75 connects Marietta.

However, GA's Governor at the time (Ernest Vandiver) was from rural Franklin County, and wanted to make sure his county got the interstate instead, so it was routed the way it was. Still makes no sense to me, as all of that NE GA area along I-85 is still very rural.

Which was stupid, because the proposed I-85 alignment from Athens to Greenville still would have taken it through part of Franklin County. It just would have gone past Royston and Franklin Springs instead of Carnesville.

As for I-85 being "very rural," that's changing. The area from Buford to Braselton is becoming more suburban, and a major warehouse corridor is emerging from Braselton to Commerce. In fact, the only truly rural segment of I-85 between Atlanta and Greenville is from Commerce to Anderson, which is only 50 miles, and still has lots of traffic anyway, due to all the cities and fast growth along the highway.

Originally Posted by primaltech

So, anyway, given that unfortunate routing, now Athens is still to this day in need of an interstate spur connection to at least I-85 to its north, if not also I-20 to its south. Even if 316 became a full-fledged interstate freeway, it still would weirdly only connect Atlanta to Athens, not really the rest of the country to Athens. They should probably have both. Maybe give 316 an interstate designation, and then extend it northeast from Athens, roughly along US 29, up to I-85 near Greenville, so that the new interstate is roughly the originally intended route of I-85, and would also serve as a bypass/alternate for I-85 traffic. It wouldn't need to be an overly wide freeway, but just the minimum standard.

As far as 400, I say make that I-675, and connect it to the existing I-675 via a tunnel for the section north of I-20, with few access points between I-20 and I-85. (Freedom Pkwy should be one.) This would be a nice traffic bypass for the Connector, and would allow the existing nearly pointless freeway stubs of Freedom Parkway, existing I-675, and Langford Parkway (which would be extended east to connect with it), all make sense finally.

I've proposed upgrading GA 316 to Interstate standards and numbering it, plus the southern and eastern segments of the Athens Perimeter and an upgraded segment of U.S. 29 up to GA 106 in Madison County, as I-585 or I-785. If we take it a step further and build an Interstate-grade highway past Danielsville and Royston to connect back to I-85 near Lavonia, then maybe number it I-685 or I-885. Athens would surely get a boost from it, since there are many businesses that prefer to locate near Interstates.

I also think that U.S. 129 and U.S. 441 should be four-lane arterial highways for their entire lengths between Macon/Dublin and Athens. Barely any of U.S. 129 is four lanes between Gray and Watkinsville, and barely any of U.S. 441 is four lanes on its concurrency with U.S. 129 between Eatonton and Watkinsville. I don't know if there's enough traffic on either of them to necessitate Interstates, but they should should be four-laned to give travelers an option to bypass Atlanta to the east, and also to better connect Macon and Athens.

For that matter, U.S. 78 should be four-laned between Athens and Thomson, because it'd help better connect Athens and Augusta. Besides, all the major highways going into Athens should be at least four lanes anyway, simply to handle traffic on football game days. In fact, GA 316 and the Athens Perimeter should be six lanes.

[primaltech]

Yeah, I think the entire US-78 corridor from at least I-285 (if not further into Atlanta, as we've been discussing in this thread), all the way out to I-20, should be a 4-lane major arterial, with as many grade separations as possible. Not an interstate, but like a parkway. The next thing down from an interstate. It's about halfway between I-85 and I-20, which are quite a ways from each other. That would be good for Georgia, and Athens, and a lot of towns and suburbs along the way.

West of Atlanta, especially west of Cobb, US-78 is basically parallel with I-20, so that doesn't really need to be upgraded.

And yes, the US-129/US-441 corridor, between Macon-Athens-Commerce should be the same thing, 4 lanes and with a nice interchange with I-85, to connect Macon and Athens, and to connect Athens to the I-85 tech corridor up thru SC. And as you said, upgrading US-29 NE of Athens to an interstate and hooking that in with I-85 near the state line, would be an even better connection for Athens to the rest of the world.

Hopefully the planned I-14 will happen at some point, to connect Columbus-Macon-Augusta. That would be big for all 3 cities, but positively huge for Macon, and its potential growth into a nice mid-size regional city, and the capital of Middle GA.

And speaking of Macon, a high-speed Amtrak connection between Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Savannah, would be absolutely huge for all 5 cities. And even better if it continued up to Chicago. (Of course, Atlanta would need a better and more central station ideally at Five Points downtown, but that's another discussion.)

Anyway, if GA-316 does eventually become a US interstate, then the absolutely biggest thing that needs to happen (for the good of both Atlanta and its suburbs and the whole state), is some kind of major 6-lane parkway (if not full-on interstate), roughly mostly along the existing GA-20, from I-75 north of Cartersville, to Canton, to Cumming, to Sugar Hill and Buford, and then behind the Mall of GA and running down on the back half of Lawrenceville, as that planned Sugarloaf Pkwy extension corridor, all the way down to what would be the new interstate (currently GA-316).

That would be about a third of a whole Outer Perimeter loop, and that would be the most controversial part (as well as the most needed), so then you should be able to get the other 2/3 of it done much easier. I assume it would run somewhere outside of Dallas-Douglasville-Peachtree City-McDonough-Covington, and it wouldn't matter if it was a designated interstate or not, or fully up to those standards. As long as it was predominantly a freeway/parkway of some kind, that would work.

It's been over 50 years since I-285 was completed. Time for some relief for that "bypass". (And before someone mentions that it would create sprawl, there's already tons of suburban sprawl all along that GA-20 route...)

[primaltech]

Houston has 3 perimeter loops, and only the inner one is an interstate (I-610). The others are the Sam Houston Tollway and the Grand Parkway, and both are state routes.

Atlanta should be able to do something similar for an outer loop. Not an interstate, but a major parkway that's at least mostly free-flowing, and allows trucks and interstate traffic to bypass the metro.

[MattCW]

I should clarify, when I said interstate standards for 316, I meant in between the at-grade crossings. There is more to interstate highway standards than just being grade-separated, and I was wondering if it met those standards.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by MattCW

I should clarify, when I said interstate standards for 316, I meant in between the at-grade crossings. There is more to interstate highway standards than just being grade-separated, and I was wondering if it met those standards.

316 won't ever be Interstate standards, but there will no longer be at-grade intersections with lights (everything is either becoming an interchange, overpass, or right in/right out).

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I-85 was originally supposed to roughly parallel US 29, which would have connected Atlanta -> Lawrenceville -> Athens -> Greenville, in a far more logical routing that would have made a lot more sense, connecting the University of GA, an increasingly major university with a national significance. Also connecting Gwinnett's county seat much like I-75 connects Marietta.

However, GA's Governor at the time (Ernest Vandiver) was from rural Franklin County, and wanted to make sure his county got the interstate instead, so it was routed the way it was. Still makes no sense to me, as all of that NE GA area along I-85 is still very rural.

So, anyway, given that unfortunate routing, now Athens is still to this day in need of an interstate spur connection to at least I-85 to its north, if not also I-20 to its south. Even if 316 became a full-fledged interstate freeway, it still would weirdly only connect Atlanta to Athens, not really the rest of the country to Athens. They should probably have both. Maybe give 316 an interstate designation, and then extend it northeast from Athens, roughly along US 29, up to I-85 near Greenville, so that the new interstate is roughly the originally intended route of I-85, and would also serve as a bypass/alternate for I-85 traffic. It wouldn't need to be an overly wide freeway, but just the minimum standard.

As far as 400, I say make that I-675, and connect it to the existing I-675 via a tunnel for the section north of I-20, with few access points between I-20 and I-85. (Freedom Pkwy should be one.) This would be a nice traffic bypass for the Connector, and would allow the existing nearly pointless freeway stubs of Freedom Parkway, existing I-675, and Langford Parkway (which would be extended east to connect with it), all make sense finally.

Well couldn't it have still gone through Franklin County once it turns north/ne after going through Athens? Definitely an oversight on GA leaders from back then.

[Need4Camaro]

TBH I’m kind of glad I-85 does not go through Athens. It’s current routing makes for a more direct path to SC and it would add a lot more traffic to the road from both NC/SC and ATL during UGA games or other UGA related events. A spur route is better for Athens.

GA-316 as a full freeway and US129/441 with grade separation at major intersections would be more than enough.

[primaltech]

I-85 should have been built alongside US-29, just like I-75 was built along US-41. Should have run south of Lake Hartwell.

GA-316 should never have had to been built in the first place. It was necessary because they put I-85 out in the middle of nowhere, instead of following the historic towns of the pre-Eisenhower US highway system.