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In general, crime and bad schools keep investment from outsiders at bay in certain neighborhoods. The ones that were on the fringe have long since been gentrified.
Also, there is an anti-gentrification sentiment that runs deep in certain circles, they view such improvements and investments as bad.
Most of these houses are NOT in historic status, while the flippers tend to strip the character inside they generally make them much more appealing to modern expectations of a home. As someone who lives in a tree lined streets of old homes in Atlanta I’d highly recommend it.
It's a dream of mine to own one of these homes. They tend to have nice-sized front porches (always wanted one of those), a small front yard, and a backyard of some degree while having a small footprint altogether (lot size). I'd rather a townhouse with these things since the shared side walls reduce energy costs and still a small private outdoor space, but it's extremely difficult to find a townhouse with a postage stamp backyard unless you are looking at real old townhouses like in Philly or Baltimore it seems. I'm sure there are some in Atlanta area but, they are severely outnumbered by townhouses with no outdoor space, outside of a balcony, whatsoever.
I'm still new to the area but I'm not used to the environment yet. I work super early in the morning so I left for my commute today here in the twilight before sunrise. It was humid, the sun hadn't risen yet but you could still see, and my complex has a fair amount of trees so it felt like a jungle to me... I love it. I wonder how long it takes before it gets old. According to my parents, the cool morning humid air with the plants never gets old, and they've been in Florida for 7 years now. I might be turning into a morning person now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3
Houses have a life cycle of ~25-30 years before you need significant repairs to bring it back. The older homes in Atlanta have gone through 3-4 life cycles and when a home is this old, repairs get complicated, and sometimes you just don't know until you move in. Things like replacing the sewer line, sagging support beams, lack of insulation, bad wiring, rotten siding, cracked or shifting foundation, or a leaky roof, are all things you will commonly come across in older homes.
Even houses that have been "flipped" have these issues. Oftentimes they go into these houses and just make a bunch of cosmetic changes to the kitchen and bathrooms, giving it the appearance of having been upgraded without actually trying to do the repairs that really need to be done.
The economics behind it create a kind of prisoner's dilemma: banks won't give you a loan to do full repairs because the value of the house isn't high enough, and the value of the house isn't high enough because the nearby houses haven't been repaired, and they haven't been repaired because the owners can't get loans for the same reasons.
This is the unfortunate reality we discovered after moving into our 1950s house that had been "remodeled", and our real estate agent's inspector completely failed to catch any of these issues because he was used to looking at newer homes.
A week after we moved in, the sewer line running to the street broke. Apparently the old ones were made of clay and it had basically just dissolved into the ground over the years. Then we found out the new shower tiles had been placed straight over plywood when they started popping out of the floor. Then we discovered the foundation was shifting. Now we have a leaky roof.
These homes are beautiful and need real repairs but the only way to do it is if you're coming in with a big income. The unfortunate thing is that those coming in with big incomes oftentimes have big heads, don't care about the history of the house or the aesthetic of the neighborhood, and they'll basically turn it into a big stupid looking McMansion that's built to look like a house in Cape Cod or a giant piece of Ikea furniture. Virginia-Highland, Ansley Park, Morningside, etc. have seen this a lot over the last 10 years and it's really unfortunate.
We really need some type of bonds or something, to get our whole neighborhoods repaired without gentrifying, because the way the financial system is set up, it makes it impossible to do anything on a community level; your only choice is to sell your house to someone with a lot more money than you do.
Is this for real?? Banks won't loan if it's above the property value? How do flippers even function? Rich mom and dad? This really is sad though, I would be more ok with flippers if they didn't do the standard formula of interior design, so white and grey it's disgusting. At least flip the home to match the style of the home that it's in, even if you make it an open concept, you can still keep the brown wood "vinyl" floors or something. Now if the house is modern in design then go for it I don't hate the white and grey but it feels so wrong to me on these old school properties and even in mid-century moderns where it is borderline tolerable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by equinox63
Below should be a list of the Atlanta neighborhoods that have been officially designated as historic districts. This means that any changes that homeowners make to the exterior of their homes have to meet the historic guidelines of that community. Some residents like this feature while others do not. However, there are plenty of historic intown neighborhoods that are not on the national registry. The primary difference is that homeowners or investors can renovate or build homes however they want without any repercussions.
One thing you may soon learn is that the overwhelming majority of posters in the Atlanta forum do not actually live in that City of Atlanta and tend to advocate for a more suburban lifestyle with a somewhat limited knowledge of what intown living is really like. I would imagine that if you searched this forum, you would find several threads highlighting this distinction.
With that said, there is definitely a high (and growing) interest in living in Intown Atlanta (which would help explain the increasingly higher price points). You can find quality homes throughout the neighborhoods that surround the Beltline. However, if you see renovated home prices dipping below $300k, the area may be a bit questionable. Basically, anything along the existing Beltine and eastward to the city limits should be fair game.
Unfortunately, many Metro Atlanta suburbanites have drank the Kool-Aid about the "ills of urban living" propagated in local news media. But as myself and several of the posters who live in the city can tell you, some of the claims about crime and bad schools on here can be a bit overblown.
For the last 7 years, my wife and I raised two young children in a 3/2 ~1560sf, all-brick, 1925 bungalow in Westview (near the West End). Now, just as my kids are entering middle school, we have moved to a 4/2 ~1680sf, 1920 bungalow in Grant Park. The main thing that I learned from both experiences is that I can probably never go back to suburban living again.
I know this will sound strange to some, but I cannot remember the last time that I travelled outside of 285; and when I do, it feels like I'm traveling out of town (which I guess I technically am). That is why I am often shocked by the horror stories that posters write about their daily commutes. During my entire time in both Westview and Grant Park, I have experienced no issues with crime and my kids still go to well-regarded schools. Not that crime and poor schools do not exist. But they no not directly affect me or my family.
But again, it is all a matter of preference. The only draw back to living in an old house is the initial updating -- plumbing, electrical, roof, etc. (if it has not already been updated). But other than that, it is just regular maintenance that would come with owning a home. One draw back is that from moving from Westview (where I had a corner lot with parking in back) to Grant Park, is that I now only have street parking. But to me, that is a minor drawback in comparison to the super-convenient urban lifestyle.
At the end of the day, do I really need a 3000+sf McMansion in the middle of a car-centric cookie-cutter suburb? I don't (and 1500-1700 sf is a bit more efficient and less expensive to cool and heat). Must I have walk-in closets and a 2+ car garage? I don't, but I suppose that there are those who do. Not that you can't have all that in the city -- but of course, it would cost a bit of money depending on where you are looking.
When you can, check out the various intown neighborhood festivals and home tours to see what I mean. A long time ago, I was not very different from the posters on here who reside in the suburbs -- until I actually saw how the people in the intown neighborhoods live. Yes, you will likely be closer to your neighbors -- you will actually know your neighbors. Yes, you will see racial and socioeconomic diversity. But I do not see that as a bad thing either.
At the end of the day, you can definitely have the idyllic, historic, bungalow on a quiet, tree-lined street that you describing in the heart of the city. Just do your homework and remember that every Atlanta neighborhood is not created equal.
near West End you say... what is that area like? Frankly haven't made my way over there, I took Metropolitan once to Northside going northbound and that was the closest I got to that community. But I see a lot of properties near that area that fall in this criteria. For example this home here, needs some love but nothing that seems uninhabitable, but with the right care can be an amazing property for someone:
Both homes look nice to me, and could be great places to be. I do wonder if the area is safe though, I don't care much for schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
The older homes that are lower priced might really be energy hogs.
Some have foundations made from hand-placed rocks or stone, some have no housewrap to keep the humidity out, some have just dirt crawlspaces and minimal subfloors separating the living space from the ground.
Think monthy electric bills of $500 mo. or more, water/sewer bills just as high.
West View is next to West End you say... the area is safe? I say that because here is a real interesting home that I see on Zillow right now that says it's listed in West End. It needs some love do not get me wrong, but does not look uninhabitable, but it has good square footage, good price,
The hot humid climate necessitates a tight building envelope to keep energy costs reasonable.
please tell me you are joking. Houses in Phoenix got that in the summer (electric only), but that was usually because it was a larger suburban home with central A/C in an APS district. And in central Phoenix where I lived, water/sewer was never that high unless you had a full irrigation system on half an acre! Are utilities bad here? I thought I escaped the utility monopoly monstrosity of Phoenix when I came here.
Houses have a life cycle of ~25-30 years before you need significant repairs to bring it back. The older homes in Atlanta have gone through 3-4 life cycles and when a home is this old, repairs get complicated, and sometimes you just don't know until you move in. Things like replacing the sewer line, sagging support beams, lack of insulation, bad wiring, rotten siding, cracked or shifting foundation, or a leaky roof, are all things you will commonly come across in older homes.
Even houses that have been "flipped" have these issues. Oftentimes they go into these houses and just make a bunch of cosmetic changes to the kitchen and bathrooms, giving it the appearance of having been upgraded without actually trying to do the repairs that really need to be done.
The economics behind it create a kind of prisoner's dilemma: banks won't give you a loan to do full repairs because the value of the house isn't high enough, and the value of the house isn't high enough because the nearby houses haven't been repaired, and they haven't been repaired because the owners can't get loans for the same reasons.
This is the unfortunate reality we discovered after moving into our 1950s house that had been "remodeled", and our real estate agent's inspector completely failed to catch any of these issues because he was used to looking at newer homes.
A week after we moved in, the sewer line running to the street broke. Apparently the old ones were made of clay and it had basically just dissolved into the ground over the years. Then we found out the new shower tiles had been placed straight over plywood when they started popping out of the floor. Then we discovered the foundation was shifting. Now we have a leaky roof.
These homes are beautiful and need real repairs but the only way to do it is if you're coming in with a big income. The unfortunate thing is that those coming in with big incomes oftentimes have big heads, don't care about the history of the house or the aesthetic of the neighborhood, and they'll basically turn it into a big stupid looking McMansion that's built to look like a house in Cape Cod or a giant piece of Ikea furniture. Virginia-Highland, Ansley Park, Morningside, etc. have seen this a lot over the last 10 years and it's really unfortunate.
We really need some type of bonds or something, to get our whole neighborhoods repaired without gentrifying, because the way the financial system is set up, it makes it impossible to do anything on a community level; your only choice is to sell your house to someone with a lot more money than you do.
Some good points. We used to live in a 1700 sf 1939 wood frame house. Our realtor DID know old houses. She told us you never know what will happen. One day I stepped outside while my wife was in the shower and saw water flooding down the inside wall. A nail securing the riser had gradually eroded a hole and water was pouring out. I also had only one place in town I could find the breakers for our fuse box as it was from a company who was out of business. And this was a house that got stripped to the studs 3 years before we moved in. When we moved and were looking at new houses, I realized how dated our bath and kitchen were and they had been redone just 20 years before.
In general, crime and bad schools keep investment from outsiders at bay in certain neighborhoods. The ones that were on the fringe have long since been gentrified.
Also, there is an anti-gentrification sentiment that runs deep in certain circles, they view such improvements and investments as bad.
I'm really not trying to be contrary, but could you please give some examples of specific neighborhoods that you would consider "fringe". Neighborhoods like Mosley Park, Grove Park, Capitol View, Oakland City, Mechanicsville or Hunter Hills comes to mind. But while they are definitely gentrifying, I would not necessary consider them gentrified at this point.
I would consider Adair Park, West End/Westview, or maybe even Castleberry Hill as somewhat gentrified or further along in the gentrification process, but of course, not as much or nearly as long as the Eastside neighborhoods.
The only pushback I have is about the statement in bold. For those who are anti-gentrification, displacement of current residents is usually the primary issue. They do NOT view such improvements and investments as bad. The rationale that you are giving to their reasoning is a fallacy.
near West End you say... what is that area like? Frankly haven't made my way over there, I took Metropolitan once to Northside going northbound and that was the closest I got to that community. But I see a lot of properties near that area that fall in this criteria. For example this home here, needs some love but nothing that seems uninhabitable, but with the right care can be an amazing property for someone:
Both homes look nice to me, and could be great places to be. I do wonder if the area is safe though, I don't care much for schools.
Both if these homes look good. They will definitely appreciate in value over time. However, if you are in the market now, since the price point is relatively low, I would make sure that you have a thorough home inspection. I would imagine that there are some hidden costs that cannot be seen by the naked eye. The most desirable parts of the West End are south of I-20 (and even more so south of Ralph David Abernathy). So I think that also may play a role in the price. There are a few West End residents in this forum, so someone may chime in with more specific details… If this is your price point, I would recommend searching the entire 30310 and parts of 30314.
The area is generally safe enough. But I would recommend riding/walking through the area to determine your level of comfort. If you are looking to get a true feel for the West End, I recommend riding/strolling down Peeples St., Lawton St., Azalia St., Oglethorpe, etc. south of RDA. This area would also connect you to the Beltline, so you might as well check that out too if you are in the area.
To get a better understanding of the Atlanta Neighborhood Boundaries, you may want to check out this link. Touching the map should highlight the specific neighborhood:
Both if these homes look good. They will definitely appreciate in value over time. However, if you are in the market now, since the price point is relatively low, I would make sure that you have a thorough home inspection. I would imagine that there are some hidden costs that cannot be seen by the naked eye. The most desirable parts of the West End are south of I-20 (and even more so south of Ralph David Abernathy). So I think that also may play a role in the price. There are a few West End residents in this forum, so someone may chime in with more specific details… If this is your price point, I would recommend searching the entire 30310 and parts of 30314.
The area is generally safe enough. But I would recommend riding/walking through the area to determine your level of comfort. If you are looking to get a true feel for the West End, I recommend riding/strolling down Peeples St., Lawton St., Azalia St., Oglethorpe, etc. south of RDA. This area would also connect you to the Beltline, so you might as well check that out too if you are in the area.
To get a better understanding of the Atlanta Neighborhood Boundaries, you may want to check out this link. Touching the map should highlight the specific neighborhood:
Those homes look very close to the freeway so noise must be considered.
The annual property taxes on the first link were nicely affordable but then went up to almost 6 times higher.
A home built in 1910 will be no match against the hot and cold throughout the year. Every component of the structure will be allowing air, moisture and bugs to pass freely.
Energy costs will be sky high unless greatly insulated and tightened.
But I think, most importantly, that you must feel connected and comfortable with the neighborhood and those living in the general area if it's ever to feel like a home.
[quote=Prickly Pear;63709543]It's a dream of mine to own one of these homes. They tend to have nice-sized front porches (always wanted one of those), a small front yard, and a backyard of some degree while having a small footprint altogether (lot size). I'd rather a townhouse with these things since the shared side walls reduce energy costs and still a small private outdoor space, but it's extremely difficult to find a townhouse with a postage stamp backyard unless you are looking at real old townhouses like in Philly or Baltimore it seems. I'm sure there are some in Atlanta area but, they are severely outnumbered by townhouses with no outdoor space, outside of a balcony, whatsoever.
That’s pretty much exactly what we hunted for ourselves, the front porch is great for hanging out and getting to talk to neighbors as they pass by or even just people watching in general. The small yards are really much better too, it’s about 5 feet from my house to my back yard fence and 10 feet from my house to the front sidewalk. Makes maintenance super cheap/easy and I can afford to fill it with plants rather than just be grass. Walking around is Really nice, all the trees crowding over the sidewalk and different plants competing for your attention, along with all the different types of houses squished together and the random business's mixed in is just all very enjoyable on a daily basis when walking the dog and such. Every time I visit our relatives in Gwinnett county I’m struck by just how much uglier and less pleasant I find their subdivision to be compared to the grant park area. In terms of costs while you should definitely do your research it shouldn’t be that hard to find something in decent/good condition without goin to crazy. To give you an idea our house is about $150 a month in energy costs and $100 a month for water, no major repairs for the 3 years we’ve owned so far. House is not super old but renovations have made the interior fairly modern. If you ever are looking for any advise or suggestions on where to look feel free to message me, I’d be happy to share what I learned from my own hunt.
Those homes look very close to the freeway so noise must be considered.
I wish I could show you a map of my current and previous homes. The Westview house was on a corner lot. If one were to walk north from that intersection one block (about 6 or 7 homes), you would come to a dead end. The other side of the dead end was I-20. From that house, if you are standing outside and are really quiet, you can hear a constant “hum” in the distance. That “hum” was I-20. It was barely noticeable. The loudest traffic noise that I ever heard was while walking along Glenwood between Park Ave. & Cherokee. So you are right that this is a consideration, but it may not be as bad as you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
The annual property taxes on the first link were nicely affordable but then went up to almost 6 times higher.
I can’t explain the details as well as the other residents who live in the West End area, but the property taxes were abnormally low for many years until a few years ago when Fulton County or the City of Atlanta adjusted them to modern standards based on the current value of the area. There have been a few threads about this specific topic from those who live in this area on this forum. I know I’m not explaining this well, but if you look at nearly every home in the surrounding area, this is the case. For many years, the taxes were artificially depressed and now are adjusted to current standards. I remember at the time that there were several programs for elderly residents to lock in their tax rate and/or file an homestead exemption (or something like that) for new owners. Hopefully, another resident can chime in, but that is an example of the tax rate in that area catching up to the times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
A home built in 1910 will be no match against the hot and cold throughout the year. Every component of the structure will be allowing air, moisture and bugs to pass freely.
This is the most ironic comment of the day for me. Literally, just yesterday, I went to the Atlanta History Center to research our current home. Turns out that the home was actually built in 1907 (not 1920 like we originally thought). It has to do with street numbers changing and a historic fire where the city’s home records were kept – but that another story. Anyway, my home feels perfectly fine in both summer and winter. I even mentioned to my wife when we first moved here that it seems even more efficient than the 1925 Westview house. No moisture issues and minimal bugs. We use Terminix – and have a cat who gets what Terminix doesn’t. So we rarely see bugs in the home. After all, the people who lived in these places before us were not living in squalor. We didn’t move into quickly flipped bandos. Not sure if that is the case with this particular house – but it doesn’t have to be. Just because a home was built in 1910 doesn't mean that it is in the exact same condition that it was in 1910. I would imagine most old homes have been updated several times over the past century to the standards of the applicable era. I know the 1925 Westview house had 5 owners prior to us and was renovated in 1940, again in 1965, and again in around 2000. Of course, we made our own updates during our time there. Stories like this are more likely the case than not in historic areas of the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
Energy costs will be sky high unless greatly insulated and tightened.
If it has not already been done, if it is an issue, then I imagine the new owner would just get it greatly insulated and tightened. How do all those people who live in Victorian era homes in Inman Park, Candler Park, Kirkwood, City of Decatur, etc. make it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by architect77
But I think, most importantly, that you must feel connected and comfortable with the neighborhood and those living in the general area if it's ever to feel like a home.
I agree 100%. Who is to say that the OP or the new homeowner would not feel connected and comfortable with the neighborhood and those living in the general area? I would recommend that you traverse the same streets that I recommended to the OP (south of RDA) and look around. I will give you some context. Pull up a map. My Westview home was north of Lucile Ave., south of I-20, west of Langhorn, & east of Wellington. I used to call it “the triangle”. I would say the residents in that area are around 50% Black and 50% White. The Black residents were either older “legacy residents” (who are extremely friendly, happy to see new people moving in, and who watch to make sure nothing shady is going on around your house while you’re gone), their children or grandchildren who have inherited the homes, or young Black professionals like myself – “black gentrifiers” – if you believe that is a thing. All the time I was there, I experienced no crime.
The White residents are often newer, younger residents mixed with white residents who had moved there in the early 2000’s (around 10 to 15 years before us) and rode the wave to where it is today. I know you didn’t specifically point out race and class. But it kind of seemed like that is what you were getting at with your last comment. Who is to say that the OP would not find and connect with people in 30310 like herself? Because they are definitely there. But you would not know unless you visited yourself and/or actually spoke to the people who live there.
Last edited by equinox63; 06-30-2022 at 08:00 AM..
That’s pretty much exactly what we hunted for ourselves, the front porch is great for hanging out and getting to talk to neighbors as they pass by or even just people watching in general. The small yards are really much better too, it’s about 5 feet from my house to my back yard fence and 10 feet from my house to the front sidewalk. Makes maintenance super cheap/easy and I can afford to fill it with plants rather than just be grass. Walking around is Really nice, all the trees crowding over the sidewalk and different plants competing for your attention, along with all the different types of houses squished together and the random business's mixed in is just all very enjoyable on a daily basis when walking the dog and such. Every time I visit our relatives in Gwinnett county I’m struck by just how much uglier and less pleasant I find their subdivision to be compared to the grant park area. In terms of costs while you should definitely do your research it shouldn’t be that hard to find something in decent/good condition without goin to crazy. To give you an idea our house is about $150 a month in energy costs and $100 a month for water, no major repairs for the 3 years we’ve owned so far. House is not super old but renovations have made the interior fairly modern. If you ever are looking for any advise or suggestions on where to look feel free to message me, I’d be happy to share what I learned from my own hunt.
^^^This
You summed this up very well. My utilities are about the same. I went from an hour to cut the grass to like 20 minutes for the front and back yard combined.
^^^This
You summed this up very well. My utilities are about the same. I went from an hour to cut the grass to like 20 minutes for the front and back yard combined.
I'll chime in on this too. I live in a decently renovated 1940's house just to the west of Westview and have roughly the same utility bills.
To OP if you like the homes go for it. Everywhere in ATL is changing quickly so go into the neighborhoods and take in what you see today.
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just all very enjoyable on a daily basis when walking the dog and such. Every time I visit our relatives in Gwinnett county I’m struck by just how much uglier and less pleasant I find their subdivision to be compared to the grant park area. In terms of costs while you should definitely do your research it shouldn’t be that hard to find something in decent/good condition without goin to crazy. To give you an idea our house is about $150 a month in energy costs and $100 a month for water, no major repairs for the 3 years we’ve owned so far. House is not super old but renovations have made the interior fairly modern. If you ever are looking for any advise or suggestions on where to look feel free to message me, I’d be happy to share what I learned from my own hunt.
