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Hello forum friends. I had my little annual holiday visit in the city. All the new high rise development is good to see, and I had a nice time. Thank you for having me.
I was thinking about what post-trip thoughts I wanted to write or comment on, but my mind just kept going back to some of the big project ideas and things that I'd really like to see for Atlanta. Those big vision and overhaul type ideas, that I think would boost and improve Atlanta up to the next level, as a real top tier, forward-thinking future city. Let me know your thoughts on these, or other ideas.
1. Go all-in on the managed lanes concept.
I mean, really go all-in with lots more of those price managed lanes everywhere, which seem to be increasingly popular and actually politically viable now, even in the South. And not just on and along the freeways, but also on some arterial roads. (Like Northside Drive/41, North Avenue, Peachtree Rd, etc.)
They make sense for a lot of reasons. The revenue and tax offset, the congestion management and reliable trip times (for a toll), and as BRT lines. So they could be the transit and the road system, in that sense.
I can imagine a variable toll lane in each direction on Peachtree Rd thru Buckhead, which could also serve as the BRT line, with in-line stations for the bus and etc. Also a future version of existing I-75 HOV lanes, converting all of that infrastructure to a variable toll managed lane system that connects Cobb to Midtown.
2. Directly integrate those managed lanes into the MARTA stations and major developments.
I mean like right into the bus loops at those existing MARTA stations, and similar bus loops at other major destinations like up at the Battery, and the future version of Gwinnett Place, etc. You would have the managed lanes ramp and tunnel off and loop into those places, for BRT station access, ride share drop off, paid parking deck direct access, etc. All separate from the general lanes infrastructure, with variable toll management to guarantee free flowing travel. (And have the great benefit of encouraging the use of mass transit to be able to use all the fast lanes while bypassing the high tolls and parking fees and Uber fares.)
I'd like to see them build a T-shaped bridge at 15th St in Midtown, from Spring St into that dead median area of the Connector, that allowed vehicles and buses to travel directly from the freeway into Arts Center, which would be a MARTA station at its base, with dense tall apartment and condo towers built on top of it.
Similarly with Doraville station. If they're not going to ever extend the rail line, then at least build some new ramps there so that buses (and toll-paying private vehicles), can access directly from the station bus bay loop/drop off/parking deck, directly right into the managed I-285 express lanes, which would flow right into similar managed lanes along I-85 out into Gwinnett, and those would have direct ramp access into big places along there, with no traffic light stops or right angle turns or any typical delays like that.
And again, tying all that into the big Avalon-style higher-density walkable private development projects.
3. Grade-separate and re-configure a lot of the main roads, ITP and OTP.
This would cost a lot of money, but would be money well spent. And the tolls could help offset it.
For example, instead of 6 stoplight intersections along a stretch of suburban arterial road, have only 3 intersections/access points to the road, and have the road pass over or under the other intersections.
This type of thing, along with new free-flowing type interchanges and lots of those diverging diamonds, and etc., would allow roads like GA-20 to become essentially the functional "outer perimeter", etc. No more interstates, but a whole bunch of new 'freeway-lite' type of mostly free-flowing major roads.
4. Become a city of roundabouts, UK style.
Roundabouts improve traffic flow, are better for the environment, and look prettier. They fit in with Atlanta's whole southern leafy green theme.
They would also help Atlanta (Midtown and in-town in particular) to have sort of an actual grid system, by re-configuring a lot of those existing weird and bizarre intersection areas (with like 3 roads all like right next to each other, but still somehow disconnected, etc.), so that you can always go in all directions.
And it could be part of a beautification effort. I'd also like to see Atlanta bury more of its ugly utility poles and wires everywhere and etc. Hide the freeways from the city, have more trees (and more of those 5th Street bridge types), and all kinds of beautification. It's important.
Widen all the sidewalks, too. Pedestrianize and urbanize the city core area especially. Seattle destroys Atlanta in this area, so bad that it's not even funny. I would love to see Atlanta be more walkable.
5. Lastly, build dense, smart, futuristic, micro-cities, around transit and managed lanes access.
With a lot of dense and tall residential, retail everywhere, and all the mixed uses.
Build 50 more of those popular fancy Avalon type nice pretty development things, except right on top of all the existing MARTA stations, on top of any future MARTA stations, and on top of direct BRT and managed lanes access points, as mentioned above, that at least would directly connect to the MARTA rail stations.
All of the proposed and potential big projects, like the Gulch development, the Stitch, Arts Center, etc.- lots of that economy-boosting private real estate development, all integrated in a smart way, where even if a lot of people are driving there, they're doing so in a way that bypasses the existing general purpose lanes system on the roads and highways. Like 2 different road systems, one paid tier and one free tier.
And then ideally all of those nice historic old railroad towns OTP, should be connected to each other and downtown Atlanta via passenger rail, like they were in the past (and the whole reason they, and Atlanta, existed in the first place...)
Anyway, that was a bit messy and disorganized thoughts there, but I really can see the enormous potential of what Atlanta could really be as a very special and cool city of the future, if it embraced big vision ideas.
Primaltech, glad you enjoyed your time here while visiting!
I am not opposed to price managed lanes--as long as the rates remain reasonable. For example, I lived in Torrance, CA (South Bay of L.A.) and commuted to DTLA 5 days a week back in California. The distance was approx. 21 miles, with 16 or so of those miles on "Fastrak." There were days when I was running late and decided to use the paid toll lanes. Most days, I noticed that the one way toll into the USC exit could be as high as $9-11. One way!
I know that a lot of people in CA can afford that toll, but I was still in an entry level job and those toll prices made me furious. I felt marginalized and felt that those lanes were a money grab vs. an actual service for the general public. My point is that those tolled lanes could have variable pricing based on demand and prices could escalate to unreasonable levels. I don't think that's fair for people who have no choice to commute and live far away due to housing budgets. (public transit also sucked in LA at this time).
I agree wholeheartedly on the grade separation piece. I'm imagining something similiar to 141 North of 285 exit up to about Jimmy Carter. If i'm mistaken, please let me know.
Love the idea of Avalon type developments near every MARTA stop. T
The only thing I'll add is MARTA expansion or regional commuter rail.
I am not opposed to price managed lanes--as long as the rates remain reasonable. For example, I lived in Torrance, CA (South Bay of L.A.) and commuted to DTLA 5 days a week back in California. The distance was approx. 21 miles, with 16 or so of those miles on "Fastrak." There were days when I was running late and decided to use the paid toll lanes. Most days, I noticed that the one way toll into the USC exit could be as high as $9-11. One way!
I know that a lot of people in CA can afford that toll, but I was still in an entry level job and those toll prices made me furious. I felt marginalized and felt that those lanes were a money grab vs. an actual service for the general public. My point is that those tolled lanes could have variable pricing based on demand and prices could escalate to unreasonable levels. I don't think that's fair for people who have no choice to commute and live far away due to housing budgets. (public transit also sucked in LA at this time).
Yep. What you describe is why managed lanes are often derided by critics as ‘Lexus Lanes’ because the lanes appear to exist to cater most to more affluent commuters and motorists who can most afford to pay the increased variable toll rates during peak traffic times.
And the State of Georgia in particular seemed to be highly motivated to fully buy into the managed lanes concept as an attempt to appeal specifically to affluent and wealthy investors by attempting to keep at least 1-2 moving lanes of traffic along increasingly extremely busy freeway corridors during peak traffic times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bethereds82
I agree wholeheartedly on the grade separation piece. I'm imagining something similiar to 141 North of 285 exit up to about Jimmy Carter. If i'm mistaken, please let me know.
While seemingly a good idea as a way to keep traffic moving along a busy arterial highway corridor, the construction of the GA-141 PIB (Peachtree Industrial Boulevard) right-of-way into a super-arterial road with express traffic lanes in the median and local traffic lanes along the sides between I-285 in the Doraville area of North DeKalb County and the GA-141 Peachtree Pkwy/PIB split/merge in the Peachtree Corners area of Gwinnett County didn’t receive the best public reception because of the adverse effects it had on local businesses along the corridor and because of a general aversion by the metro Atlanta and North Georgia public to road construction projects that are perceived to be too large in scale.
And the construction of GA-141 PIB OTP into a freeway in North Fulton and Gwinnett counties was perceived by much of the public to be a roadway construction project that was too large in scale for the tastes of what often can be a freeway construction-averse metro Atlanta/North Georgia public.
About a decade or so ago, a then still completely GOP-dominated Gwinnett County government proposed to extend the PIB express lane/local lane setup up to Pleasant Hill Road in Duluth with funding from tolls.
But the idea to extend the PIB express/local frontage lane setup to Pleasant Hill Rd with tolls on the express lanes received a very cool reception from the Gwinnett County public… Both because the PIB expressway extension proposal was perceived by the Gwinnett County public to be too large in scale with its seemingly adverse impacts on existing businesses and properties and because (very much like with Georgia residents as a whole) Gwinnett County residents also didn’t like the tolling aspect of the project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bethereds82
Love the idea of Avalon type developments near every MARTA stop. T
The only thing I'll add is MARTA expansion or regional commuter rail.
Unfortunately, the prospects of expansion of the existing MARTA HRT (Heavy Rail Transit) system and/or the prospects of implementing regional commuter rail transit service don’t appear to be all that bright within the foreseeable future.
That’s because the dramatic increase in the number of people working from home since the start of the pandemic back in March 2020 has given Georgia’s deeply conservative extremely transit-averse political leadership a very convenient excuse not to have to invest in a mode of transportation that many Georgia conservatives remain very highly skeptical of (and even outright opposed to on ideological grounds) in transit.
With the prospects of transit expansion appearing to be extremely dim for the foreseeable future, the best thing that can be done to help transit become a much more viable mode of transportation in the eyes of a perennially transit-averse and transit-skeptical metro Atlanta and North Georgia public is to execute the idea of building up revenue and ridership-generating high-density mixed-use transit-oriented developments at as many existing MARTA HRT stations as possible.
Yeah, like B2R said, given all the circumstances, I think the first step at this point for any hope of MARTA HRT expansion, would be making the absolute best use of the existing rail system and all the stations, including full refreshes/revitalizing/getting lots of new use out of all the existing stations, coupled with those new futuristic fleet of trains coming in a couple years. Other than Airport station which you can't really do too much with, Atlanta metro should focus on turning all of the MARTA stations into dense, urban, transit connected, walkable villages right around the stations, and the ones in Midtown/Downtown should all have tall towers built on top of them in the air rights. (And maybe the Buckhead and Perimeter stations as well.)
And then like I said, GDOT/MARTA/ATL working together to build some new direct ramps at key stations, directly right into a regional price-managed express lanes network, for use by new BRT lines and express buses/shuttle links, and more direct and convenient drop off access for choice riders, and park/ride access.
Like for example with Doraville, they should reconfigure that whole station and immediate area, so you've got a high density new Doraville city downtown village all right around the station, and that whole Assembly mega development nicely integrated into it with its full potential, and maybe even new apartment buildings built on top of some of the station's parking lots/decks.
Directly from the station/bus bay area, without having to get on any surface roads, would be some new ramps for accessing the future I-285 managed lanes, heading in either direction.
Northlake Mall area could be all re-developed into some big new mixed use type thing, directly integrated into the managed lanes, with the in-line BRT station and all that. So people in Tucker and that area would have a new direct MARTA BRT access that shuttles them right into Doraville station or Indian Creek station from there. And Indian Creek could also be all re-imagined/re-developed/re-configured, into a dense transit connected village type all new place.
Then maybe, like, take that shopping center in Dunwoody on Hammond (with the Nordstrom Rack and Best Buy and all of that transit-averse surface parking), and re-develop all that into something with high density and towers, with the I-285 managed lanes access and BRT station directly integrated right into it, and all of that directly pedestrian integrated into the Dunwoody MARTA station platform.
And an in-line BRT station could connect right to that pedestrian bridge between the Battery and Galleria in Cobb, with direct shuttle rides from the HE Holmes, Dunwoody, Doraville, and Arts Center stations.
Where Satellite Blvd in Gwinnett currently ends at Beaver Ruin, that could be extended as ramps directly into the managed lanes, and a real quality 'Ride Gwinnett' BRT could run in the median of Satellite thru the Gwinnett Place area, and connect directly down to the Doraville station via all managed express lanes.
And so on. Things like that. Assuming no new rail, there's still a lot that could be improved, via private sector projects and roadway and infrastructure type projects, re-configurations, etc.
As far as PIB/141 up thru Peachtree Corners and Johns Creek, that also seems like a great opportunity to convert the inside lane to a managed express lane, then have direct ramps from there into the 285 managed lanes and then directly into Doraville MARTA station, so BRT bus could just loop back and forth along there, all the way out to McGinnis Ferry.
Primaltech, glad you enjoyed your time here while visiting!
I am not opposed to price managed lanes--as long as the rates remain reasonable. For example, I lived in Torrance, CA (South Bay of L.A.) and commuted to DTLA 5 days a week back in California. The distance was approx. 21 miles, with 16 or so of those miles on "Fastrak." There were days when I was running late and decided to use the paid toll lanes. Most days, I noticed that the one way toll into the USC exit could be as high as $9-11. One way!
I know that a lot of people in CA can afford that toll, but I was still in an entry level job and those toll prices made me furious. I felt marginalized and felt that those lanes were a money grab vs. an actual service for the general public. My point is that those tolled lanes could have variable pricing based on demand and prices could escalate to unreasonable levels. I don't think that's fair for people who have no choice to commute and live far away due to housing budgets. (public transit also sucked in LA at this time).
I agree wholeheartedly on the grade separation piece. I'm imagining something similiar to 141 North of 285 exit up to about Jimmy Carter. If i'm mistaken, please let me know.
Love the idea of Avalon type developments near every MARTA stop. T
The only thing I'll add is MARTA expansion or regional commuter rail.
The price is only determined by what it takes to dissuade enough traffic from entering to maintain a free-flowing lane of 45mph or greater.
That's the only mechanism that keeps these lanes flowing and advantageous when needed.
Yeah, like B2R said, given all the circumstances, I think the first step at this point for any hope of MARTA HRT expansion, would be making the absolute best use of the existing rail system and all the stations, including full refreshes/revitalizing/getting lots of new use out of all the existing stations, coupled with those new futuristic fleet of trains coming in a couple years. Other than Airport station which you can't really do too much with, Atlanta metro should focus on turning all of the MARTA stations into dense, urban, transit connected, walkable villages right around the stations, and the ones in Midtown/Downtown should all have tall towers built on top of them in the air rights. (And maybe the Buckhead and Perimeter stations as well.)
And then like I said, GDOT/MARTA/ATL working together to build some new direct ramps at key stations, directly right into a regional price-managed express lanes network, for use by new BRT lines and express buses/shuttle links, and more direct and convenient drop off access for choice riders, and park/ride access.
Like for example with Doraville, they should reconfigure that whole station and immediate area, so you've got a high density new Doraville city downtown village all right around the station, and that whole Assembly mega development nicely integrated into it with its full potential, and maybe even new apartment buildings built on top of some of the station's parking lots/decks.
Directly from the station/bus bay area, without having to get on any surface roads, would be some new ramps for accessing the future I-285 managed lanes, heading in either direction.
Northlake Mall area could be all re-developed into some big new mixed use type thing, directly integrated into the managed lanes, with the in-line BRT station and all that. So people in Tucker and that area would have a new direct MARTA BRT access that shuttles them right into Doraville station or Indian Creek station from there. And Indian Creek could also be all re-imagined/re-developed/re-configured, into a dense transit connected village type all new place.
Then maybe, like, take that shopping center in Dunwoody on Hammond (with the Nordstrom Rack and Best Buy and all of that transit-averse surface parking), and re-develop all that into something with high density and towers, with the I-285 managed lanes access and BRT station directly integrated right into it, and all of that directly pedestrian integrated into the Dunwoody MARTA station platform.
And an in-line BRT station could connect right to that pedestrian bridge between the Battery and Galleria in Cobb, with direct shuttle rides from the HE Holmes, Dunwoody, Doraville, and Arts Center stations.
Where Satellite Blvd in Gwinnett currently ends at Beaver Ruin, that could be extended as ramps directly into the managed lanes, and a real quality 'Ride Gwinnett' BRT could run in the median of Satellite thru the Gwinnett Place area, and connect directly down to the Doraville station via all managed express lanes.
And so on. Things like that. Assuming no new rail, there's still a lot that could be improved, via private sector projects and roadway and infrastructure type projects, re-configurations, etc.
As far as PIB/141 up thru Peachtree Corners and Johns Creek, that also seems like a great opportunity to convert the inside lane to a managed express lane, then have direct ramps from there into the 285 managed lanes and then directly into Doraville MARTA station, so BRT bus could just loop back and forth along there, all the way out to McGinnis Ferry.
Buses using the upcoming managed lanes would comprise maybe 1% of all traffic (think tens of thousands of vehicles every day.) Therefore all of these new convenient ramps and lanes to Marta wouldn't even remotely be a prudent use of precious resources.
However some very adjacent park and ride lots immediately next to all stations would convey that transitioning to MARTA would be quick and easy, and appropriate for the single-occupant drivers that comprise 90% of traffic volume.
Many of your suggestions may be on the way as the express lane buildout ramps up.
Marta's new trainsets should coincide with all stations getting scrubbed and polished and installation of new signage. It could be a shiny new branding that entices the public to consider incorporating it into their regular routines.
I doubt if any American city will ever get a new heavy rail system built, and it is a very valuable asset for Atlanta. I say the new rail cars and cleaned platforms could usher in a new attitude towards mass transit.
As far as Northlake goes, it can't compete with all the trendy intown shopping spots (already more than you can show to visitors in a weekend) and any transit hub must lie at the juncture of where everyone is going to and fro. Northlake can't serve that purpose in my opinion.
Buses using the upcoming managed lanes would comprise maybe 1% of all traffic (think tens of thousands of vehicles every day.) Therefore all of these new convenient ramps and lanes to Marta wouldn't even remotely be a prudent use of precious resources.
However some very adjacent park and ride lots immediately next to all stations would convey that transitioning to MARTA would be quick and easy, and appropriate for the single-occupant drivers that comprise 90% of traffic volume.
Many of your suggestions may be on the way as the express lane buildout ramps up.
Marta's new trainsets should coincide with all stations getting scrubbed and polished and installation of new signage. It could be a shiny new branding that entices the public to consider incorporating it into their regular routines.
I doubt if any American city will ever get a new heavy rail system built, and it is a very valuable asset for Atlanta. I say the new rail cars and cleaned platforms could usher in a new attitude towards mass transit.
As far as Northlake goes, it can't compete with all the trendy intown shopping spots (already more than you can show to visitors in a weekend) and any transit hub must lie at the juncture of where everyone is going to and fro. Northlake can't serve that purpose in my opinion.
I only mentioned Northlake because it's halfway between Doraville and Indian Creek and will be along the I-285 managed lanes, and is a commercial hub area for Tucker. I think it would make sense to have a proper, in-line BRT station built into it (connected to park/ride decks), and that could go along with new development and re-development of some of that 1970s-1980s style shopping mall parking lots area and such.
Anyway, the point of the managed lanes having direct connections to the MARTA stations would be for buses (which may only be a small % of the lanes, but would have the most passengers per vehicle, and would be the cheap way for people to use the lanes without paying the toll), but also for vehicles accessing those stations, either for Uber drop offs or for direct park/ride.
The reason I mentioned it is because when I was there recently I was reminded of how awkward it is to access Doraville as an end of the line commuter station. If they're not going to extend the line to a new station, then they need to make improvements to that one.
Yes on the cleaning up and refreshing of stations, replacement of all signage, etc. Along with the rail cars.
I still think they should emphasize The ATL as the main brand of all the transit in the region, since it's the thing that ties together MARTA with the other county bus systems and such. With the other brand (MARTA/Cobb/Gwinnett/whatever), de-emphasized. Unification of everything as far as the end user is concerned.
I only mentioned Northlake because it's halfway between Doraville and Indian Creek and will be along the I-285 managed lanes, and is a commercial hub area for Tucker. I think it would make sense to have a proper, in-line BRT station built into it (connected to park/ride decks), and that could go along with new development and re-development of some of that 1970s-1980s style shopping mall parking lots area and such.
Anyway, the point of the managed lanes having direct connections to the MARTA stations would be for buses (which may only be a small % of the lanes, but would have the most passengers per vehicle, and would be the cheap way for people to use the lanes without paying the toll), but also for vehicles accessing those stations, either for Uber drop offs or for direct park/ride.
The reason I mentioned it is because when I was there recently I was reminded of how awkward it is to access Doraville as an end of the line commuter station. If they're not going to extend the line to a new station, then they need to make improvements to that one.
Yes on the cleaning up and refreshing of stations, replacement of all signage, etc. Along with the rail cars.
I still think they should emphasize The ATL as the main brand of all the transit in the region, since it's the thing that ties together MARTA with the other county bus systems and such. With the other brand (MARTA/Cobb/Gwinnett/whatever), de-emphasized. Unification of everything as far as the end user is concerned.
Yes, although I'm not 100% sure "the ATL" is my favorite system name, MARTA is better because it does begin with Metropolitan.
Slowly but surely the neighboring core counties are realizing the advantages of being branded as one region. For decades prior there was little coordination with Atlanta for reasons that are not worth perpetuating or mentioning. I think many bus systems do have the ATL logo on them, though it's small. Regional commuters do need to quickly identify their county's buses though as they're rushing to and from work, I also would like to see more visual branding that conveys that the whole region's transit is connected as a whole.
The ATL regional branding came at the time when big corporate headquarters were arriving and chose to build right on MARTA rail lines. This signaled to state legislators that MARTA should be supported, start receiving at least some state funding, and then utilized to recruit new companies to relocate.
Atlanta is becoming such a big major US city that eventually the underlying infrastructure and systems will be reworked in the modern era, and one by one they'll support 21st century Atlanta.
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