The 25 Billion Dollar Solution the ATL Traffic (Atlanta, Smyrna: best city, how much)

[vandiver49]

Realizing their 'Mobility 2030' Comprehesion Study failed to reduce traffic in ATL, the Atlanta Regional Commission (ARC) hired the Reasons Foundation to see if the could solve ATL current traffic woes.

http://www.reason.org/ps351.pdf

This 84 page rant proposes that the city should build two underground tollways. One that would connect the southern terminus of GA400 to the northern part of I-675. And the other from Lakewood Freeway to I-20 East. The estimated cost of these two projects? $25 Billion dollars!!!

This report makes me furious for a couple of reasons...

1. The assertion that you can build your way out of congestion by constructing more freeways This was already tried once, GDOT 'Freeing the Freeways' program, which resulted in wider interstates and wonderful landmarks like the Brookwood Interchange, Spaghetti Junction and the Cobb Coverleaf. Yet, twenty years later the congestion returned.

2. That transit alternatives are a fraudulent investment Under the guise of 'freedom of choice' and 'pork spending opposition' the Reasons reports claims that investing in MARTA, LRT, Commuter Rail and Transit Orientated Developments are goverment boondoggles which attempt to force a standard of living and commuting on residents.

I'm all for freedom of choice...by all means live, work and commute however you see fit. The problem most Atlantans face is that there IS NO CHOICE! Unless you're forunate enough to have access to MARTA, the only way to get around the city is via automobile.

3. Putting these proposed tollways underground Firstly, the routes they proposed were originally apart of ATL original expressway system. I have no idea how much ARC or GDOT paid for this study, but they should get their money back from Reasons if going underground is all the 'innovation' they can come up with.

And while going underground sounds alluring, there are several problems that come immediately to mind. The biggest one being that ATL sits on top of several feet of granite. MARTA's Peachtree Center Station and the more recent Chattahoochee Tunnel Project both experienced significant delays because of this dense rock and both pale in comparision to the proposed underground tunnels. The potential for delays and cost overuns could easily approach 'Big Dig' proportions.

(I searched the Reasons Foundation website for their analysis of what went wrong with the Big Dig. Their assertion is that the problems surrounding the Big Dig stemmed from the fact that it was wholly a government sponsered project, thus lacking any fiscal restraint. They state that had it been a private/public partnership, the outrageous costly overruns would have been avoided and that overall the Big Dig should be viewed as an 'anomoly'.)

The only part of this report I agree with is that the lack robust surface arterial system has exacerbated ATL traffic. (Quick, name one road you can take to traverese the entire city?) An immediate solution to this problem could be increasing the number of one-way streets. (i.e. North Ave and Ponce or Peachtree and West Peachtree) With residential areas so clearly established throughout the city though, any new road construction will be met with HEAVY opposition.

Only through a comprehesive transportation plan, one that includes rail, roads, buses, HOT and HOV will Atlanta free itself from the increasing congestion.

(BTW, for an idea of what we could have, take a look at the Citizens for Progressive Transit proposed rail system. http://www.cfpt.org/ )

[marymel]

I work in a restaurant, and every Saturday evening, an older gentleman comes in for dinner. He's usually with other guests, but he's a retired city planner/civil engineer. Anyway, every Saturday night he rants about the traffic in Atlanta and the politics that frustrate common sense! Unfortunately, I never get to sit down and hear everything he has to say. Some things I have overheard (might be out of context,too):

"Brain Train" connecting Emory (which wants to build a huge underground parking garage for an additional hospital expansion and construction of five more campus buildings) to UGA/Athens. Funding issues? State versus Federal funding?

Millions more are expected to expand Atlanta and Georgia in our lifetime. Where is everyone going to go? Scary thought... time to bring on the flying cars!

Didn't the state of Georgia have a huge budget surplus this year? Did I recently hear that with the amount of money we spend repairing existing roads over and over, we could build the superconnectors. Raleigh, NC, is constructing concentric beltways around the city, like another perimeter.

Is there a city in existance with a significant LACK of traffic? Who has the best city design? I'm not a world traveler, but there has to be someone out there who has untangled a traffic mess.

[xxman777]

The Reason Foundation wasn’t hired by ARC. The Reason Foundation is a non profit, think tank which is funded through private donations. I don’t know who the private individuals or corporations are but the foundation is known as being pro-road building and pro-public private partnership and anti transit so you can probably take a guess. When this report came out the ARC gave a statement saying something like this is something to think about but it won’t fix our congestion problems. I think GDOT was a little more enthusiastic about it (they don’t generally like transit while the ARC is pro transit).

I agree completely that there are many problems with this report, building more freeways is not the answer to Atlanta’s congestion problems. The problem is cities which have effective transit systems have also purposely made if difficult to commute using the highways (using toll ways or congestion); forcing commuters onto trains or buses. Those cities are also dense enough where some people can walk or have a very short car ride to stations. Also shopping is often nearby to homes so trips are short sometimes don’t need a car. Atlanta is so spread out that a lot of roads are needed just to satisfy the demand. Also, the culture in Atlanta is different from transit oriented cities. The better transit systems are in foreign countries where people are okay with using transit systems. The sentiment in the Atlanta area seems to be that people want others to use transit systems so they can drive on the roads, but would never actually use a bus or train themselves.

[JPD]

The tunnel idea is the worst "traffic solution" that has been proposed to date.

Big Dig anyone?

[crystalblue]

more verticalness and less horizontality would/could help...

[gt6974a]

I sit hear and read everyone complaining about traffic all the time but I think metro Atlanta has just grown too big, too fast. Too fast for roads, transit, etc to keep up even if was/could be planned properly.

Inside the Perimeter traffic hasn't changed much. I graduated from Tech and was well aware of the commute b/t 98 and 03, I've worked in Atlanta since then and have lived in Smyrna and back to Acworth. I think navigating around Atlanta is cake compared to navigating Cobb.

I graduated from North Cobb in 1996 with 300 people in my class, my sisters 4 and 5 years later, had 650-750 in their classes. Three high schools have since then been built that relieved NC with another going in this year.

In my 10 years before graduation I don't think there was a single new HS in Cobb built.

People complain but they keep buying farther and farther out b/c 'Mainly' how much house they get for the money. Then cry b/c they work 40 miles away.

As I started a new position downtown, I've been taking CCT Express from Acworth for $4 round trip. I don't have to pay for gas, parking, frustration. The commute averages 40+ minutes from exit 277 to the perimeter, something like exit 263 I think. About 12+ minutes to get from perimeter to corner of Peachtree/International Blvd.

I like it alot, but it's still not practicle for 95% of people who work inside the perimeter.

I don't really think there's a 'good' solution, Atlanta is just so spread out. But I can guarantee you, more roads like the Northern Arc would make it worse, more sprawl.

Wider roads, with 'some' transit would be greatly beneficial. Especially truck lanes and HOV lane extended farther out. The HOV lane inside the perimeter is pretty much useless IMO and doesn't make that much of a difference.

The bottle necks kill everything, especially with the trucks. 75 North goes from like 5 or 6 lanes to 3 at the 285 interchange. And south only has 2 lanes feeding the exit.

[Mossberg]

A Northern Arc can work if it is made to be extremely limited access. Part of the problem with sprawl and accompanying traffic is the number of exit and entrance ramps. A Northern Arc should have nothing but rest areas with integrated gas stations along the way (like on the Ohio Turnpike) with the only exits being I-85, GA400, and I-75. Add in a few ways to turn around every few miles, and I think an outer perimeter would work. (but hey, I'm no traffic engineer)

The lack of local access should slow down the sprawl somewhat (and be cheaper to consruct since there would be less land and materials needed for interchanges).

[Mossberg]

Just stumbled upon this old thread by chance.

Funny thing is, the areas where the outer perimeter/northern arc would have been continued/continues to sprawl anyway. Now, there is no viable bypass for trucks and out-of-towners to avoid the perimeter. It's almost better to have built the highway anyway.

I would really like to see the Sugarloaf Pkwy extension in Gwinnett Co. become the start of the Northern Arc project again. I would also like to see more mass transit options. I don't think any of these pipe dreams are realistic in the short term unfortunately though due to the soaring costs of construction and shrinking tax bases.

I don't think we need to actually widen many current freeways. I think part of the solution is diverting traffic that wouldn't otherwise come into the city from the main commuting arteries (ie trucks and vacationers) to another bypass with extremely limited access as I stated above back in 2007.

The other part of the solution would be viable surface roads that would negate the need to take freeways everywhere. This solution is just not that practical at this juncture since the surface road systems are so fubar'd in the burbs. There are not many high volume roads that can get you across town efficiently enough to get people off of the freeways.

Some may differ in what they feel are solutions to the problem (such as more "HOT" Lexus Lanes which I despise ), but one thing is for sure: We can't just do NOTHING or the region will suffer. Hell, many places lose my business because I just don't want the hassle of fighting traffic to go spend my money. An example of this is Mall of Georgia area on Saturdays or during the Thanksgiving-Christmas seasons. Traffic can certainly kill revenues for businesses and discourage companies from locating to a region.

[architect77]

Atlanta is doomed, stuck with its existing freeway network designed for 2.5 million population in 1990. GDOT sat back and did nothing as it watched metro area double in population.

I don't want more sprawl, but another loop needs to be built, and the 75/85 connector needs to be double-decked.

Not much will materialize in our lifetimes, tho