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Old 04-28-2012, 01:57 PM
Box
 
382 posts, read 564,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
I'm black and I love living around black people who adopt a culture of personal responsibility and hard work. Some things are not gonna change no matter how many programs you create. You gotta get rid of a culture that doesn't want to rise up or be responsible.
So people born into poverty, and deprived of realistic opportunities are responsible for their condition? Also, we can say that things won't change no matter how many programs we create, but the fact of the matter is most of these programs don't really do anything to help people. You can have all of the resume workshops in the world, but this and other types of programs aren't really getting to the core of the issue.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:27 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,580,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Box View Post
So people born into poverty, and deprived of realistic opportunities are responsible for their condition? Also, we can say that things won't change no matter how many programs we create, but the fact of the matter is most of these programs don't really do anything to help people. You can have all of the resume workshops in the world, but this and other types of programs aren't really getting to the core of the issue.
People are born poor, people are born rich. What do you want? We can't change that less creating some communist society where everyone has the same wage or something. What opportunities does a poor kid not have if he is going to the same school as a middle class kid? People who come from modest backgrounds rise all the time. Thats becuse their parentx instilled them a hardworking and resposible culture.What programs will get rid of a culture that doesn't value education and hardwork?
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:32 PM
Box
 
382 posts, read 564,419 times
Reputation: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
People are born poor, people are born rich. What do you want? We can't change that less creating some communist society where everyone has the same wage or something. What opportunities does a poor kid not have if he is going to the same school as a middle class kid? What programs will get rid of a culture that doesn't value education and hardwork?
lol really? So you're not knowing if your lights are gonna be on the next day doesn't adversely affect a kids education? Or not knowing if there's gonna be food on the table the next day doesn't adversely affect a kids education? Or a parent being unable to attend a student/teacher conference due to transportation issues or work doesn't affect a kids education? Also, do you really equate providing people with a better means of upward mobility as "communism?" Like i said before, when people are disenfranchised for generations, of course there's going to be some adverse effects. But of course it's easier to just shove these folks and the problems that they face away in a dark corner, so that hipsters can feel comfortable walking around the city.
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Old 04-28-2012, 05:40 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,580,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Box View Post
lol really? So you're not knowing if your lights are gonna be on the next day doesn't adversely affect a kids education? Or not knowing if there's gonna be food on the table the next day doesn't adversely affect a kids education? Or a parent being unable to attend a student/teacher conference due to transportation issues or work doesn't affect a kids education? Also, do you really equate providing people with a better means of upward mobility as "communism?" Like i said before, when people are disenfranchised for generations, of course there's going to be some adverse effects. But of course it's easier to just shove these folks and the problems that they face away in a dark corner, so that hipsters can feel comfortable walking around the city.
If what you stated above was the problem then they would be better off in the project where all that stuff was provided and food stamps provide plenty to eat. Yet, the issues still persist. You talk about disanfrachisenent but why is it that so many blacks have moved to middle class status and above? Most blacks aren't even poor or lower class. It's just a small subset that can't seem to or refuse to do better. If the vast majority of previously disanfrachised blacks can lift themselves out of poverty, then white can't this small group?

If the issue is parent not having the skills or attitude to get the skills to have basic needs met then we probably need to take them away from these parents. They are a terrible example for these kids. They would be better off with the state or foster parents until the parents got their act together. Being black and "disenfranchised" doesn't cut it as an excuse anymore since most blacks are not poor.
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:00 PM
 
6,751 posts, read 9,405,349 times
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All the Housing Projects gone? Are we about to see a positive change for ATL this decade



Depends on how much unemployment is a problem in the city. Much of these inner city problems are connected to a lack of employment opportunities. All hoods seem to have problems with high unemployment. This high unemployment means that too many males of various ages will be spending too much of their time in the streets and with all the drama that comes with that. The decline in manufacturing jobs has been one of the reasons for the high unemployment numbers for black males because for decades black men have been heavily concentrated in manufacturing jobs.

To reduce street crimes in poor areas will require more employment. It will be better for guys to be spending 8 to 12 hours at a job making legal money instead of spending those 8-12 hours in the streets. I was talking to a guy on the L.A forum and he pointed out how people with jobs are the ones rarely gangbangin. So basically when unemployment goes up street crimes go down.
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:08 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,580,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
All the Housing Projects gone? Are we about to see a positive change for ATL this decade



Depends on how much unemployment is a problem in the city. Much of these inner city problems are connected to a lack of employment opportunities. All hoods seem to have problems with high unemployment. This high unemployment means that too many males of various ages will be spending too much of their time in the streets and with all the drama that comes with that. The decline in manufacturing jobs has been one of the reasons for the high unemployment numbers for black males because for decades black men have been heavily concentrated in manufacturing jobs.

To reduce street crimes in these areas will require more employment. It will be better for these guys to be spending 8 to 12 hours at a job making legal money instead of spending those 8-12 hours in the streets. I was talking to a guy on the L.A forum and he pointed out how people with jobs are the ones rarely gangbangin. So basically when unemployment goes up street crimes go down.

That would imply that the men on the streets causing crime care about getting a job and making an honest living. If they did, they would be commiting crimes and would try to learn a skill or trade.
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:19 PM
 
6,751 posts, read 9,405,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
That would imply that the men on the streets causing crime care about getting a job and making an honest living. If they did, they would be commiting crimes and would try to learn a skill or trade.
There will always be guys that will be knuckle heads for whatever reason I'll acknowledge that. If employment options were better in many poor areas I think enough males will takes those jobs helping to get them off the streets for a few productive hours.

Going back to what I said about L.A. gangs. If you check the gang documentry Bastards Of The Party the guy who created that doc was a Bloods gang member. He pointed out how when jobs that had employed many males from his area started disappearing the gang situation got worse. Because now with fewer jobs many guys had nothing to help divert them away from gangs or help those to move on from the gang life as they got older. With jobs being fewer in the hood the gang and the streets took on a bigger importance for these guys especially for financial reasons(selling drugs,thefts etc).
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Old 04-28-2012, 06:55 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,580,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
There will always be guys that will be knuckle heads for whatever reason I'll acknowledge that. If employment options were better in many poor areas I think enough males will takes those jobs helping to get them off the streets for a few productive hours.

Going back to what I said about L.A. gangs. If you check the gang documentry Bastards Of The Party the guy who created that doc was a Bloods gang member. He pointed out how when jobs that had employed many males from his area started disappearing the gang situation got worse. Because now with fewer jobs many guys had nothing to help divert them away from gangs or help those to move on from the gang life as they got older. With jobs being fewer in the hood the gang and the streets took on a bigger importance for these guys especially for financial reasons(selling drugs,thefts etc).
We live in information service economy now. Many decent paying jobs require some type of skill now. People have to understand this and adjust. Unskilled manufacturing jobs are likely gone for good.
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Old 04-29-2012, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
3,528 posts, read 4,387,128 times
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Maybe we do live in an "information service economy" as you call it. But unfortunately this information service economy right now doesn't seem to have the ability to accommodate everyone, not even the people who are educated, the people who know better than to slouch in world that constantly changes, and the people who very much want to be involved in this economy.

Regardless of what the free-market ideologues, less-government activists, and politically uninvolved moderates want to believe, human beings cannot simply interchange their mindsets like a computer that's upgrading from Windows Vista to Windows 7. For whatever reason, there are human beings that are naturally hard-wired for occupations like mechanical engineers while other human beings are hard-wired to pluck feathers from chickens in a factory. Don't ask me how or why, but human beings just seem to work that way.

Also, most human beings are not super-humans free from the constraints of daily life such as poor health nor have no familiar attachments like an ailing relative, so very often traveling to a new job in another state or even another country is out of the question. So what is the answer?

Ever heard of the phrase "Don't let the perfect stand in the way of the good"? My main problem with a lot these conversations on city-data as well as in real life is that far too many people seem to want the perfect situation, but can't seem to accept that it's far more practical and realistic to have the good situation.

For example we could have a 21st century New Deal program right now, but wealthy and powerful forces working behind the scenes have so screwed up America's social-political structure that such a notion won't even be entertained. There could be a massive public works program to revamp the nation's aging infrastructure that could put millions of out-of-work blue collars back on the job immediately, but the political extremists have so thoroughly put the fear of God in everyone that this idea is dead-on-arrival.

Also, why is it that there can't be a push to solve the energy problem in the same fashion that President Kennedy pushed to put a man on the moon that can potentially put a lot of these Space-Age engineers back to work? I don't remember the free market ever being at the forefront of putting a man in deep space. And yet how is it that our electorate has been hijacked by this illogical idea that this same free market will solve America's energy issues? I'm still scratching my head on that one...

It's practically en vogue these days to hate on any government involvement into public life, even though privately-owned institutions like corporations have not proven to be any better as stewards of the public good. But regardless of any inefficiencies which can be chalked up to human failure, an attribute common to any man-made institution, our government has proven that it is up to the vital task of getting massive amounts of people working again...if only America allows it to.

So yeah, we can talk all about how America is "this type of economy" or "that type of economy", but it won't change the reality that at this point in time, America is not a country that seems to be able to efficiently put many people in some type of full-time employment. It was once before, but it just ain't that type of country now.

Feel free to clue me in on the answers for that dilemma, eh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Onthemove2014 View Post
We live in information service economy now. Many decent paying jobs require some type of skill now. People have to understand this and adjust. Unskilled manufacturing jobs are likely gone for good.

Last edited by AcidSnake; 04-29-2012 at 05:20 AM..
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:03 AM
 
1,250 posts, read 1,580,422 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidSnake View Post
Maybe we do live in an "information service economy" as you call it. But unfortunately this information service economy right now doesn't seem to have the ability to accommodate everyone, not even the people who are educated, the people who know better than to slouch in world that constantly changes, and the people who very much want to be involved in this economy.

Regardless of what the free-market ideologues, less-government activists, and politically uninvolved moderates want to believe, human beings cannot simply interchange their mindsets like a computer that's upgrading from Windows Vista to Windows 7. For whatever reason, there are human beings that are naturally hard-wired for occupations like mechanical engineers while other human beings are hard-wired to pluck feathers from chickens in a factory. Don't ask me how or why, but human beings just seem to work that way.

Also, most human beings are not super-humans free from the constraints of daily life such as poor health nor have no familiar attachments like an ailing relative, so very often traveling to a new job in another state or even another country is out of the question. So what is the answer?

Ever heard of the phrase "Don't let the perfect stand in the way of the good"? My main problem with a lot these conversations on city-data as well as in real life is that far too many people seem to want the perfect situation, but can't seem to accept that it's far more practical and realistic to have the good situation.

For example we could have a 21st century New Deal program right now, but wealthy and powerful forces working behind the scenes have so screwed up America's social-political structure that such a notion won't even be entertained. There could be a massive public works program to revamp the nation's aging infrastructure that could put millions of out-of-work blue collars back on the job immediately, but the political extremists have so thoroughly put the fear of God in everyone that this idea is dead-on-arrival.

Also, why is it that there can't be a push to solve the energy problem in the same fashion that President Kennedy pushed to put a man on the moon that can potentially put a lot of these Space-Age engineers back to work? I don't remember the free market ever being at the forefront of putting a man in deep space. And yet how is it that our electorate has been hijacked by this illogical idea that this same free market will solve America's energy issues? I'm still scratching my head on that one...

It's practically en vogue these days to hate on any government involvement into public life, even though privately-owned institutions like corporations have not proven to be any better as stewards of the public good. But regardless of any inefficiencies which can be chalked up to human failure, an attribute common to any man-made institution, our government has proven that it is up to the vital task of getting massive amounts of people working again...if only America allows it to.

So yeah, we can talk all about how America is "this type of economy" or "that type of economy", but it won't change the reality that at this point in time, America is not a country that seems to be able to efficiently put many people in some type of full-time employment. It was once before, but it just ain't that type of country now.

Feel free to clue me in on the answers for that dilemma, eh?
How is spending more money we don't have or taking money from the people who do have jobs to create artificial jobs going to improve the economy? Sure that will lower unemployment but you can't possibly think this is even a "good" solution in the long run.

If you are one of those people who think the new deal got us out of the great drepression by moving money around and creating fake jobs then I won't even get into it. Tired of having that same discussion.


Regardless of how you think we should spend government funds that don't exist, you gotta understand we are till stuffering in large part becuase the funds don't exist. We keep inflating our money supply hoping to jump start something based on Keynsian model that even Keynes said is a not a good long term economic model, yet we still trust it. This is a world wide issue by the way. The a whole world has more funny money then real labor and we are seeing the effects in all countries that played with funny money and China is next. We as humans have to get back to a monetary policy based on something tangible based on real productivity, not magic.


As far as people not being able to adjust to changing times and a new type of economy that requires skills we really don't have much of a choice right now. Unlike after world war 2 we aren't one of the only developed or developing nations. We have real global completion in developing countries and that causes the inetivable "global economy" the liberals hate to hear about. It was going to happen sooner or later no matter what we did less terrorizing the world. Those people in other countries are humans too. They want jobs and the ability to move up economically too. Did we forget that? Right now they have the cheap labor advantage. Soon, as we are seeing in China now as the average standard of living rises from those people the cost to manufacture will naturally go up in those countries as the people demand better pay and conditions and factories have to compete to get the best workers. This will make producing in the U.S. lucrative again and is sorta happening but it won't ever be like it used to, at least not in our lifetime until all developing countries have their chance to rise.

This whole recession is a world wide issue man. It's not something the U.S. alone caused or can fix. The first step is changing the way we as humans create and use money and credit (monetary system ). It needs to get back to the roots of money. Then we as a human race need to adjust our education systems world wide to deal with new technology and skills as needed to move use forward as needed. Country political lines are archaic and limiting. We have think on a global level to solve a global human issue. Giving jobs to people who were simply substances farmers over seas helped lift a whole gen out of poverty. We gotta stop this selfish "my country" mindset as we are all in trouble with human changes.

Last edited by Onthemove2014; 04-29-2012 at 10:26 AM..
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