Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Or the safer form 'driven' from the computer...known as "Road Rant".
By the bye, I wonder what effect the 'Left lane for passing only' and 'slower traffic keep right' message boards will have . Slim?(or did he leave town already?)
Minimal, IMHO. All of those signs and ITS doohickeys do nothing...not one iota...to address capacity. To increase roadway capacity, you have to add lane(s).
Calm down. The shoulders aren't "being taken away", as far as I know (I don't actually work on the project, so I'm going off what I do know from folks who *do*, so don't take what I say as absolute gospel). They're being reduced in size, as are the existing travel lanes, to create enough room for one new lane in each direction, which will be managed.
But let's go with your argument for a second - if you've indeed "paid for those shoulders", don't you think a travel lane is a much better, higher investment than a shoulder? And the lanes that will take a bite out of those shoulders you've paid for will actually pay back the construction bond that created them, unlike the free lanes (which you, and I, and everyone else who pays taxes DID certainly pay for, and continue to pay for in operations/maintenance and life cycle costs, to this day). Maybe you have some special affinity for shoulders (which do nothing to increase capacity), but me? I'll take another travel lane.
In any case, you must not have read the posts that I put up after I answered yours the first time. The managed lanes (one in each direction) will be free to emergency vehicles, so if anything they'll *expedite* emergency services to the scene of an accident, not delay them. In other words, ambulances will get there faster than today. Your concern is completely misplaced.
The shoulders are being narrowed- that's not safe. I hope you, or someone you love, aren't injured or killed if your car stalled, you pull over, get out and get hit- all in the name of generating money to some governmental entity.
How do you enforce those HOV lanes? With more police patrols? I'm not being contentious, I'd just like to know what your proposal would be to enforce HOV at all times on all four lanes. If you're going to 'concern troll' about ambulances being stuck in traffic (as you did in your last post), then why are you not concerned with diversion of police resources to make sure that only HOV vehicles use MoPac?
You enforce them the same way you enforce a toll pass. We have the technology. What the HOV lanes DON'T provide is a financial revenue source.
The shoulders are being narrowed- that's not safe. I hope you, or someone you love, aren't injured or killed if your car stalled, you pull over, get out and get hit- all in the name of generating money to some governmental entity.
You enforce them the same way you enforce a toll pass. We have the technology. What the HOV lanes DON'T provide is a financial revenue source.
No, sorry. A "toll pass" is enforced with transponders on the vehicles, and video technology at check points (which snaps license plates of vehicles that don't have the transponder or whose transponder accounts are tapped out), and a mostly automated system that sends out bills to the non-toll payers who use the lane or tollway.
HOV lanes are not enforceable that way because permission for their use is based on the number of people in a vehicle, not willingness to pay the toll. There is currently no affordable technology out there that can reliably count the number of people in every vehicle - they're tool easy to spoof with dummies (which has an extensive and storied history in places like LA). So, the only way to reliably do it Moderator cut: personal attack is to increase police patrols substantially.
Maybe someday the technology will be advanced enough to be able to count the number of people in a vehicle (in fact, I expect it will be), but it's not developed enough just yet. In any case, your statement that toll roads and toll lanes are enforced "the same way" is false.
Shoulders provide a number of important functions. Safety and efficient traffic operations can be adversely affected if any of the following functions are compromised:
Shoulders provide space for emergency storage of disabled vehicles (Figure 7). Particularly on high-speed, high-volume highways such as urban freeways, the ability to move a disabled vehicle off the travel lanes reduces the risk of rear-end crashes and can prevent a lane from being closed, which can cause severe congestion and safety problems on these facilities.
Shoulders provide space for enforcement activities (Figure 7). This is particularly important for the outside (right) shoulder because law enforcement personnel prefer to conduct enforcement activities in this location. Shoulder widths of approximately 8 feet or greater are normally required for this function.
Shoulders provide space for maintenance activities (Figure 7). If routine maintenance work can be conducted without closing a travel lane, both safety and operations will be improved. Shoulder widths of approximately 8 feet or greater are normally required for this function. In northern regions, shoulders also provide space for storing snow that has been cleared from the travel lanes.
Shoulders provide an area for drivers to maneuver to avoid crashes (Figure 7). This is particularly important on high-speed, high-volume highways or at locations where there is limited stopping sight distance. Shoulder widths of approximately 8 feet or greater are normally required for this function.
Shoulders improve bicycle accommodation (Figure 8). For most highways, cyclists are legally allowed to ride on the travel lanes. A paved or partially paved shoulder offers cyclists an alternative to ride with some separation from vehicular traffic. This type of shoulder can also reduce risky passing maneuvers by drivers.
Shoulders increase safety by providing a stable, clear recovery area for drivers who have left the travel lane. If a driver inadvertently leaves the lane or is attempting to avoid a crash or an object in the lane ahead, a firm, stable shoulder greatly increases the chance of safe recovery. However, areas with pavement edge drop-offs can be a significant safety risk. Edge drop-offs (Figure 9) occur where gravel or earth material is adjacent to the paved lane or shoulder. This material can settle or erode at the pavement edge, creating a drop-off that can make it difficult for a driver to safely recover after driving off the paved portion of the roadway. The drop-off can contribute to a loss of control as the driver tries to bring the vehicle back onto the roadway, especially if the driver does not reduce speed before attempting to recover.
Shoulders improve stopping sight distance at horizontal curves by providing an offset to objects such as barrier and bridge piers (Figure 10).
On highways with curb and enclosed drainage systems, shoulders store and carry water during storms, preventing water from spreading onto the travel lanes.
On high-speed roadways, shoulders improve capacity by increasing driver comfort.
No, sorry. A "toll pass" is enforced with transponders on the vehicles, and video technology at check points (which snaps license plates of vehicles that don't have the transponder or whose transponder accounts are tapped out), and a mostly automated system that sends out bills to the non-toll payers who use the lane or tollway.
HOV lanes are not enforceable that way because permission for their use is based on the number of people in a vehicle, not willingness to pay the toll. There is currently no affordable technology out there that can reliably count the number of people in every vehicle - they're tool easy to spoof with dummies (which has an extensive and storied history in places like LA). So, the only way to reliably do it Moderator cut: personal attack is to increase police patrols substantially.
Maybe someday the technology will be advanced enough to be able to count the number of people in a vehicle (in fact, I expect it will be), but it's not developed enough just yet. In any case, your statement that toll roads and toll lanes are enforced "the same way" is false.
Why does your car yell at you when you, or your passenger, don't have your seat belts on? That's right- because it can detect who is sitting where. The technology is there....it's just not as profitable to build HOV lanes as it is to build toll lanes.
I'm interested in the topic, and against tolling existing highways as a tax paying citizen. Moderator cut: removed response to deleted portion of post I'm not employed by MOPAC, the city, CAMPO, or any other governmental body- are you?
Shoulders provide a number of important functions. Safety and efficient traffic operations can be adversely affected if any of the following functions are compromised:
Shoulders provide space for emergency storage of disabled vehicles (Figure 7). Particularly on high-speed, high-volume highways such as urban freeways, the ability to move a disabled vehicle off the travel lanes reduces the risk of rear-end crashes and can prevent a lane from being closed, which can cause severe congestion and safety problems on these facilities.
Shoulders provide space for enforcement activities (Figure 7). This is particularly important for the outside (right) shoulder because law enforcement personnel prefer to conduct enforcement activities in this location. Shoulder widths of approximately 8 feet or greater are normally required for this function.
Shoulders provide space for maintenance activities (Figure 7). If routine maintenance work can be conducted without closing a travel lane, both safety and operations will be improved. Shoulder widths of approximately 8 feet or greater are normally required for this function. In northern regions, shoulders also provide space for storing snow that has been cleared from the travel lanes.
Shoulders provide an area for drivers to maneuver to avoid crashes (Figure 7). This is particularly important on high-speed, high-volume highways or at locations where there is limited stopping sight distance. Shoulder widths of approximately 8 feet or greater are normally required for this function.
Shoulders improve bicycle accommodation (Figure 8). For most highways, cyclists are legally allowed to ride on the travel lanes. A paved or partially paved shoulder offers cyclists an alternative to ride with some separation from vehicular traffic. This type of shoulder can also reduce risky passing maneuvers by drivers.
Shoulders increase safety by providing a stable, clear recovery area for drivers who have left the travel lane. If a driver inadvertently leaves the lane or is attempting to avoid a crash or an object in the lane ahead, a firm, stable shoulder greatly increases the chance of safe recovery. However, areas with pavement edge drop-offs can be a significant safety risk. Edge drop-offs (Figure 9) occur where gravel or earth material is adjacent to the paved lane or shoulder. This material can settle or erode at the pavement edge, creating a drop-off that can make it difficult for a driver to safely recover after driving off the paved portion of the roadway. The drop-off can contribute to a loss of control as the driver tries to bring the vehicle back onto the roadway, especially if the driver does not reduce speed before attempting to recover.
Shoulders improve stopping sight distance at horizontal curves by providing an offset to objects such as barrier and bridge piers (Figure 10).
On highways with curb and enclosed drainage systems, shoulders store and carry water during storms, preventing water from spreading onto the travel lanes.
On high-speed roadways, shoulders improve capacity by increasing driver comfort.
Mad copy and paste skills! Now, can you point me to where in the MoPac effort that any of the safety features of a standard FHWA shoulder will be compromised?
But seriously....you don't see narrowing shoulders as a safety issue?
No, because as far as I know (and admittedly I'm not a highway guy, I'm a rail guy, but I'm very very familiar with the safety requirements that the Feds put on public projects) there are no features of the MoPac project that will compromise safety. I can say that with confidence because you're simply not *allowed* to compromise safety as defined by the Feds, in this case the FHWA (Federal Highway Administration). It's against the law.
So, again, while I'm not intimately familiar with the project, I would bet my right arm that nothing that CTRMA is doing will contravene Federal safety regulations. If they did, the project would never go forward.
What I'm guessing is that the shoulders currently exceed the regulatory standard, and the small amount of space that is being taken from them will not drop them below what is considered "safe" in the industry and by the regulators (who take their jobs very seriously; they're notoriously tough).
While it's true that I'm speculating here, I'm doing so based on almost 30 years of experience in the transportation field, with a healthy dose of complying with Federal regs. Moderator cut: personal attack We all get it; you don't like toll roads!
Last edited by Debsi; 10-17-2012 at 08:08 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. Slim?(or did he leave town already?)
