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Passenger rail loses huge amounts of money, even streetcar systems do (see Old Austin). The only way it can stay running is through massive taxpayer subsidies.
...much like roads, the ATC system, seaways, etc. In reality, passenger rail *makes* money...but just not for the agencies that run it. Because of the way our laws are structured (and I'm not necessarily disagreeing), mass transit owner/operators cannot own the development around their stations. In places like Hong Kong, the transit agency can own the development that naturally occurs around their stations, and they're in the black to the tune of billions of dollars. A lot of that is due to sheer density, true enough, but if passenger rail agencies were able to own station area development (and develop properties the way a real estate developer would), there is little doubt that the system would make money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro
It is worth it to some major cities, but not so much for a place like Austin.
OK. Let's say you're right, for the sake of argument. Austin is SO unique from any other of the hundreds of cities that have passenger rail that it's not "worth it" here. So, here's the thing - CAMPO projects a need for 12 additional lanes from the north into downtown, and 14 from the south by 2035 based on growth trends which have held steady for a long time now. You are the transportation planner that has to decide how to address that capacity deficit.
How would you:
1) propose to pay for them (bearing in mind that TxDOT is broke, and the feds are currently arguing over a surface transportation bill that will not add significant funds to the mix, and might actually have *less* money in it than previously, since fuel tax revenues are down and have been declining for some time)? Estimate anywhere from $10 million to $20 million per lane mile.
2) propose to advance an environmental permitting and regulatory process that contemplates huge new bridges over the lake, and the acquisition of huge amounts of property on both sides of the road, including at a minimum the Erwin Center, at least two cemeteries (one a state historic property), Brackenridge Hospital, the UT baseball field and portions of Memorial Stadium, in addition to big pieces of East Austin, just in Austin alone, all in a reasonable amount of time given the huge numbers of lawsuits you could anticipate?
3) propose to construct such a behemoth project with minimal disruption to the current roadways, which are the *sole* means we have right now of accessing the downtown from the suburbs?
No need to show your work.
Last edited by jb9152; 06-29-2012 at 01:31 PM..
Reason: Stupid punctuation errors
The truth is that there is no correct method(s) to deal with the long-term transportation needs of Austin, just a choice of implementing never-ending mitigating options. Period. But, there is an answer for Austinites' transportation needs: live near your work, work outside of the nine-to-five routine.
The truth is that there is no correct method(s) to deal with the long-term transportation needs of Austin, just a choice of implementing never-ending mitigating options. Period. But, there is an answer for Austinites' transportation needs: live near your work, work outside of the nine-to-five routine.
To some extent, yes. But the work-outside peak hour trick doesn't work anymore. The peak period is now spread across many hours. Heck, 35 is congested at 1 PM, 8 PM...
Living near your work is not an option for everyone, especially with the expense of downtown living, for example. 30% of all employment in Central Texas is concentrated in three zip codes in downtown Austin. There is not going to be a sea change in the number of people who live downtown in any reasonable time frame.
So, we're stuck with a very serious problem, a few tools to work with, and hopefully the will to get the things done that we need to.
The truth is that there is no correct method(s) to deal with the long-term transportation needs of Austin, just a choice of implementing never-ending mitigating options. Period. But, there is an answer for Austinites' transportation needs: live near your work, work outside of the nine-to-five routine.
This is the correct answer, as opposed to spending $30 Billion-$50 Billion on a rail network to bring Austin's transportation up to world class city standards.
Austin can't afford to do 1/10 of that, so it's a unicorn issue to me.
Austinites will be so choked with high taxes, even the yuppies & hipsters won't be able to afford to live downtown.
This is the correct answer, as opposed to spending $30 Billion-$50 Billion on a rail network to bring Austin's transportation up to world class city standards.
And how do you propose to do that? Coercion? How do you ensure that everyone (or a substantial portion of "everyone") lives close to where they work? The latest CAPCOG demographic data shows that 50% of the residents of Central Texas cross a county line to get to work. So how would you propose to change that around in some reasonable amount of time without coercion, punitive taxation, or some other heavy-handed measure?
Also - why does Austin's transportation need to be "world class city" right now? We need to make incremental, affordable investments in a reasonable amount of time to address our serious capacity deficit. There is no one who is saying we need to drop $30 to $50 billion on rail right now...no one. Nice try, but it's a total straw man. We can make rational, incremental investments to try to stay ahead of the curve, or our transportation problems will soon fix themselves in the same way that Detroit has fixed itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro
Austin can't afford to do 1/10 of that, so it's a unicorn issue to me.
It's not only Austin's cost to bear. That's not how large infrastructure projects get done, so that is a total non sequitir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro
Austinites will be so choked with high taxes, even the yuppies & hipsters won't be able to afford to live downtown.
Actually, in the upcoming bond election, great pains were taken to keep the amount under the cap so as *not* to increase taxes.
Still waiting on your solution to the transportation problem.
And how do you propose to do that? Coercion? How do you ensure that everyone (or a substantial portion of "everyone") lives close to where they work? The latest CAPCOG demographic data shows that 50% of the residents of Central Texas cross a county line to get to work. So how would you propose to change that around in some reasonable amount of time without coercion, punitive taxation, or some other heavy-handed measure?
Also - why does Austin's transportation need to be "world class city" right now? We need to make incremental, affordable investments in a reasonable amount of time to address our serious capacity deficit. There is no one who is saying we need to drop $30 to $50 billion on rail right now...no one. Nice try, but it's a total straw man. We can make rational, incremental investments to try to stay ahead of the curve, or our transportation problems will soon fix themselves in the same way that Detroit has fixed itself.
It's not only Austin's cost to bear. That's not how large infrastructure projects get done, so that is a total non sequitir.
Actually, in the upcoming bond election, great pains were taken to keep the amount under the cap so as *not* to increase taxes.
Still waiting on your solution to the transportation problem.
New office space & businesses should open in the 'burbs, Decentralize state offices. Have a moratorium on any new downtown office space and urge large older companies to move to the 'burbs where the workers are. Double or triple business property taxes in downtown austin by zip code.
lol - Money's not a problem?
Sorry, but I'm going to bow out of this one....it's dropped to the level of absurdity.
New office space & businesses should open in the 'burbs, Decentralize state offices. Have a moratorium on any new downtown office space and urge large older companies to move to the 'burbs where the workers are. Double or triple business property taxes in downtown austin by zip code.
So you kill downtown, force some businesses out of existence, and use the heavy hand of government coercion to force....what? Dispersed development (also known as "sprawl"), so that it becomes more expensive to provide municipal services like police, fire, EMS, sanitation, etc., while you destroy the tax base that supports it. OK, just so long as I know where you stand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro
lol - Money's not a problem?
Of course money's a problem. It's just not a $50 billion problem, as you attempted ridiculously to say in regards to a rail system. It's amazing how people grab figures out of the air when they're attempting to support a completely insupportable (from a factual standpoint) opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro
Sorry, but I'm going to bow out of this one....it's dropped to the level of absurdity.
Carry on please.
Well, thanks for your input - kill business, kill downtown, and raise taxes. Duly noted.
So you kill downtown, force some businesses out of existence, and use the heavy hand of government coercion to force....what? Dispersed development (also known as "sprawl"), so that it becomes more expensive to provide municipal services like police, fire, EMS, sanitation, etc., while you destroy the tax base that supports it. OK, just so long as I know where you stand.
Of course money's a problem. It's just not a $50 billion problem, as you attempted ridiculously to say in regards to a rail system. It's amazing how people grab figures out of the air when they're attempting to support a completely insupportable (from a factual standpoint) opinion.
Well, thanks for your input - kill business, kill downtown, and raise taxes. Duly noted.
Why not raise taxes - that's what you are going to do anyway.
The avid rail proponents will push for tens of billions in debt to build a system that will lose tens of millions annually. This "first phase" is going to cost at least $100,000,000 per mile. That's just plain crazy. Then there will be a next phase and a next....etc. Then they'll clamor for a tube system which will run at least a Billion per mile. A billion here, a billion there - pretty soon yer talkin' some real money...lol
And as the article in the AAS (IIRC) reported the other day, a complete system for Austin will run about $30-$50 Billion to build. Just because the proponents want to boil the Austin frogs slowly doesn't mean that's "grabbing figures out of the air". As anyone with more than a brainstem knows that any proposal these project planners come up with nearly always grossly underestimated and run by incompetents - especially here in Austin.
Where do you think those billions are going to come from, the bankrpt federal government?
I like public transportatation as well as the next guy and have used streetcars, bicycles, motorbikes, trains, metrobuses, subways, monorails and even Mexican chicken buses over many decades, so don't think I'm against it - just the hideous costs that poor planners and said incompetency bring. And there is no shortage of that in this city.
Austin has not demonstrated that it is capable of playing in the big leagues because it's run by a bunch of smalltime rubes.
New office space & businesses should open in the 'burbs, Decentralize state offices. Have a moratorium on any new downtown office space and urge large older companies to move to the 'burbs where the workers are. Double or triple business property taxes in downtown austin by zip code.
lol - Money's not a problem?
Sorry, but I'm going to bow out of this one....it's dropped to the level of absurdity.
Carry on please.
Exactly. There are ways around this besides throwing vast amounts of money to build roads, roads, and more roads, paving over the very things that make people want to move here. You just have to think outside the box (and mass transit, by the way, is still thinking very much inside the box).
Road infrastructure can be improved, light rail can be built.....but the bureaucracy, general incompetence, and corruption that are prevalent in Austin and many big cities drive up the costs to an unreasonable level.
If anybody refuses to believe that, then they are just kidding themselves.
In the meantime, the citizenry complains & whines about the cuts (or threatened cuts) in police & fire protection, cuts in the public libraries, cuts in the public schools.....yet they vote in the same yokels who exacerbate the rot.
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