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Old 02-23-2015, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,189,088 times
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Well, your most basic point indicates that even you can't assume you know everyone's tastes, living patterns or mindsets in these established neighborhoods. However, "the fact that a lot of those people form neighborhood associations that oppose multifamily housing in those neighborhoods" is strong evidence as to what the people in those neighborhoods want that can't be ignored just because it goes against the way you think. If those people living in those neighborhoods had formed neighborhood associations that were clamoring for the kind of development that you want, I'm pretty sure that you would take that as an indicator of what they want, and I would have to, as well, even if I didn't agree with it.
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Old 02-23-2015, 09:19 AM
 
Location: 57
1,427 posts, read 1,176,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
Well, your most basic point indicates that even you can't assume you know everyone's tastes, living patterns or mindsets in these established neighborhoods. However, "the fact that a lot of those people form neighborhood associations that oppose multifamily housing in those neighborhoods" is strong evidence as to what the people in those neighborhoods want that can't be ignored just because it goes against the way you think. If those people living in those neighborhoods had formed neighborhood associations that were clamoring for the kind of development that you want, I'm pretty sure that you would take that as an indicator of what they want, and I would have to, as well, even if I didn't agree with it.
Neighborhood associations famously ALWAYS represent the NIMBY mindset of the people who've already "got theirs" and don't want anything to change. They're just another predictable political faction in the mix, not any sort of source of wisdom or insight. It doesn't matter where we're talking about, this much is true.
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Old 02-23-2015, 10:17 AM
 
7,742 posts, read 15,040,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pop251808 View Post
Neighborhood associations famously ALWAYS represent the NIMBY mindset of the people who've already "got theirs" and don't want anything to change. They're just another predictable political faction in the mix, not any sort of source of wisdom or insight. It doesn't matter where we're talking about, this much is true.
our neighborhood association went against michigan left turns. Just because a neighborhood association doesnt want it doesnt mean it isnt good for them or for the neighborhood in general.

Change is always bad.. this means no matter what the change is, many people will be against it because change is scary.

For example multifamily housing can provide much needed money for local schools by having a higher density of children.

Multifamily housing provides the $$ needed for local establishments to flourish with more patrons in the area.

Multifamily housing provides a diversity of people in the neighborhood.

Just because a neighborhood association (usually run by just a few vocal people) doesnt appreciate those benefits doesnt mean they arent there.



The downside is more people in the neighborhood. Sometimes with lesser incomes who are more diverse.
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Old 02-23-2015, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,189,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pop251808 View Post
Neighborhood associations famously ALWAYS represent the NIMBY mindset of the people who've already "got theirs" and don't want anything to change. They're just another predictable political faction in the mix, not any sort of source of wisdom or insight. It doesn't matter where we're talking about, this much is true.
In other words, if the people that live and own property in the neighborhood with the most to lose or gain don't want what you want, they are to be dismissed as nimbys. One wonders what you would say if they were seeking multi-family housing in their single family home neighborhood. (Wonder if there has ever been a neighborhood association, that is, group of PEOPLE who live/own in the same neighborhood and have the same things to gain or lose, that felt that way? Going to have to see what I can find out - it's an interesting question.)

Here's a thought - you want to dispense with all zoning in a "test neighborhood". How about before doing that, the neighborhood is chosen, ALL of the occupants and owners are notified, and a vote is held as to whether to keep it single family or to dispense with zoning and add multi-family housing. If the majority vote of those who care enough to vote is to stay single family, would you be willing to abide by that without calling them "nimbys" just because they disagree with what you want? I'd be willing to abide by such a vote if it went the other way.
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Old 02-23-2015, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Austin TX
11,027 posts, read 6,454,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pop251808 View Post
Neighborhood associations famously ALWAYS represent the NIMBY mindset of the people who've already "got theirs"
I suppose the same could be said for the urban pod supporters who complain that they can't "get theirs" until others give up something on their behalf.
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Old 02-23-2015, 12:43 PM
 
Location: 57
1,427 posts, read 1,176,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
In other words, if the people that live and own property in the neighborhood with the most to lose or gain don't want what you want, they are to be dismissed as nimbys. One wonders what you would say if they were seeking multi-family housing in their single family home neighborhood. (Wonder if there has ever been a neighborhood association, that is, group of PEOPLE who live/own in the same neighborhood and have the same things to gain or lose, that felt that way? Going to have to see what I can find out - it's an interesting question.)

Here's a thought - you want to dispense with all zoning in a "test neighborhood". How about before doing that, the neighborhood is chosen, ALL of the occupants and owners are notified, and a vote is held as to whether to keep it single family or to dispense with zoning and add multi-family housing. If the majority vote of those who care enough to vote is to stay single family, would you be willing to abide by that without calling them "nimbys" just because they disagree with what you want? I'd be willing to abide by such a vote if it went the other way.
I abide by rules that enforce exactly what NIMBY's want, every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor Cal Wahine View Post
I suppose the same could be said for the urban pod supporters who complain that they can't "get theirs" until others give up something on their behalf.
Yup, "urban pod supporters" (whatever they are?) are another faction, I suppose. But they don't have the imprimatur of Neighborhood Association, which, by their very nature attempt to enforce the will of the most entrenched and reactionary residents; the ones who see progress as "I'm giving up something to undeserving newcomers." Which is fine, but understand the way it breaks down, because if you look at all of the fights on these sorts of topics, they're some version of this.
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Old 02-23-2015, 01:10 PM
 
625 posts, read 1,128,945 times
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City Council/Code Next special meeting live now:

Watch ATXN Live | ATXN | AustinTexas.gov - The Official Website of the City of Austin
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,189,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pop251808 View Post
I abide by rules that enforce exactly what NIMBY's want, every day.

Yup, "urban pod supporters" (whatever they are?) are another faction, I suppose. But they don't have the imprimatur of Neighborhood Association, which, by their very nature attempt to enforce the will of the most entrenched and reactionary residents; the ones who see progress as "I'm giving up something to undeserving newcomers." Which is fine, but understand the way it breaks down, because if you look at all of the fights on these sorts of topics, they're some version of this.
By "most entrenched and reactionary" you mean "doesn't see that if I get my way it's a GOOD thing no matter what it does to the neighborhood they live and own in, I take it? In other words, if it's "progress" it's by definition good and anyone who questions that is just an old fuddy duddy?
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,958 posts, read 45,189,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pop251808 View Post
I abide by rules that enforce exactly what NIMBY's want, every day.
That wasn't the question. I was taking your proposal and asking if you'd be willing to put it up for a vote so that we could see for sure how those most impacted, those who live and own in the neighborhood, felt about it and if they agreed with you before doing it. Or if you felt that it is something that should just be done by fiat no matter what the people who live and own in the neighborhood, the ones with the most to gain or lose by your proposal, think about it.

So still waiting for an answer to that question, a real, non-dodging answer.
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:26 PM
 
Location: 57
1,427 posts, read 1,176,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
By "most entrenched and reactionary" you mean "doesn't see that if I get my way it's a GOOD thing no matter what it does to the neighborhood they live and own in, I take it? In other words, if it's "progress" it's by definition good and anyone who questions that is just an old fuddy duddy?
Why do you keep saying "my way," as if I were demanding something? I'm not the first nor the only citizen of this fair city that thinks we could stand some increased density to improve the quality of life and solve some of our problems caused by suburban sprawl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
That wasn't the question. I was taking your proposal and asking if you'd be willing to put it up for a vote so that we could see for sure how those most impacted, those who live and own in the neighborhood, felt about it and if they agreed with you before doing it. Or if you felt that it is something that should just be done by fiat no matter what the people who live and own in the neighborhood, the ones with the most to gain or lose by your proposal, think about it.

So still waiting for an answer to that question, a real, non-dodging answer.
I think you know that elections on these sorts of topics won't work well, will be heavily lobbied by special interests who will distort the issues for their gain, and by the time it makes it to an election date the issue will be anathema to many voters and unrecognizable.
We live in a sort-of democracy, but we also live in a republic. Complicated issues are best solved by well-intentioned, knowledgeable and dutiful public servants who select smart staff and bureaucrats to administer their interpretation of the public good. That's kind of where we're at, although many of my neighbors vote for the wrong guys. Go figure.
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