Is Austin really a liberal bastion? (Howe: high school, live in, design)

[TexasHorseLady]

Did I say it was okay for a Christian to wear a t-shirt of a similar type? (T-shirts are MUCH more obvious than jewelry of most kinds; I rarely see anyone wearing a necklace, say, with an 8 or 10 inch square symbol of much of anything.) You'll see (if you look close) people in Austin wearing jewelry of all sorts of belief systems (or non-belief systems - fish with feet, for example), but they don't make a point of getting in people's faces in the way that a t-shirt does.

This makes it clear that it is intended to be confrontational.

Maybe a way to say to the world "there are all kinds of different faiths out there... not just Christianity."

Which is fine, and lots of people (of all stripes) do that kind of thing in Austin and it's no big deal - what isn't is to then be all weirded out because you got a confrontational response to a confrontational shirt, because that is still very clearly what was being sought.

In other words, denying any of the responsibility for the consequences of your own actions, or blaming it on someone else being confrontational rather than owning up to the fact that that's exactly the response the shirt, by its very nature, was intended to invoke. Just as the Democracy one is intended to invoke comment, as you admit. They BOTH are.

By the way, is he (or are you) acknowledging that atheism is just as much a "faith" as the belief in any of the myriad of religions in the world? If so, kudoes to you for that.

[readymade]

Eh, maybe you're right (about the t-shirt being confrontational), TexasHorseLady, but I still say it was a rude response. And I (and my husband) completely believe Atheism is just as faith-based as Christianity (or any other religion).

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by readymade

Eh, maybe you're right (about the t-shirt being confrontational), TexasHorseLady, but I still say it was a rude response.

And you'll note in my first comment on this, I said:

The waitress was out of line. However, the shirt did, indeed, invite comment - that would seem to be its main purpose, as the purpose of most shirts that have something written on them other than the name of the manufacturer usually is.

This doesn't excuse the waitress - it simply points out that the response, while it might have been rude (as was the shirt, in the same way as the response, albeit a bit more passive-aggressive than the waitress was), wasn't "weird" as you characterized it earlier, but quite the opposite - predictable, in fact.

[readymade]

I disagree that it was a predictable response. And I disagree that the shirt was rude as well... no ruder than a person with a jesus t-shirt, anyway. They're not being rude... they're just proclaiming their faith! I believe any rudeness is pretty weird, personally. There's (usually) no call for that kind of behavior. What I actually thought was weird was that a) she came up to us out of the blue to say something negative, and b) that she babbled on and on about Lent without making much sense. (not very Christian behavior, in my opinion)

I'm not sure why wearing an "Atheists" t-shirt is just as rude as a stranger going up to someone and telling them they wouldn't wait on them. I believe that's called religious prosecution, and one of the main reasons America was founded.

When she first came up to us, she asked if the shirt said "Atheists," my husband said it was. Then she asked him if he was actually an atheist. He said he used to be and that he'd since changed his mind since he didn't feel like there was any way to be sure. She then told him that he'd better be sure if he was wearing that shirt. Throughout all of this, she was smiling, and we thought she was just sort of having us on, and we didn't have a problem with it at all. After all, you're right... the shirt invites comment. THEN she got a bit pissy and started in on how we were lucky she wasn't our waitress, yadda, yadda yadday, and then started going on about Lent & corn chips. THAT'S when it got weird! We just sort of gazed at her in shock until she had her say & left. We were with my mom & sister and, quite honestly, it was mortifying especially since I'd been trying to convince them that Texas isn't chock-full of conservative religious freaks.

I'm just sayin'... I would NEVER go up to someone wearing something religious or a cross and say "You'd better be sure!" or give them crap about it. One of the the things we kind of wished we'd said was "Wow, your faith mustn't be very strong if you're letting a stupid shirt get you so bent out of shape!"

I'm not a religious person at all, but I have to say that a lot of things that Jesus had to say were pretty great and very relevant. I don't understand why so-called "christians" pretty much act the opposite of his teachings. "Turn the other cheek?" he must not have really meant that. "Let he without sin cast the first stone?" eh, maybe tomorrow. Do I want to go up to people wearing crosses and acting like jackasses and ask them why they are such hypocrates? Sure! Do I? Nope.

[TexasHorseLady]

Do I want to go up to people wearing crosses and acting like jackasses and ask them why they are such hypocrates? Sure! Do I? Nope.

No, you have that attitude but you let your husband's shirt do it for you, pretty much. That's why I put the passive-aggressive comment in there.

I, personally, wouldn't do what the waitress did to someone wearing ANY kind of confrontational clothing; I do happen to think it's rude.

However, that she was rude doesn't mean that your husband wasn't looking for a confrontation and trying to get someone else to look like the one who "started it".

I don't much care for Christians who blazen their faith all over the place, because I HAVE read the Bible and could, if necessary, quote chapter and verse of the New Testament where it's made quite clear that's not appropriate. But the same holds for atheists, or those of whatever religion, in my book. Your "religion" is between your God (or lack thereof) and you.

[atxcio]

I've gotta say, THL, if you were trying to make the argument that Austin is liberal or even just "live and let live", you've certainly not done a very good job.

Originally Posted by readymade

Do I want to go up to people wearing crosses and acting like jackasses and ask them why they are such hypocrates? Sure! Do I? Nope.

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

No, you have that attitude but you let your husband's shirt do it for you, pretty much. That's why I put the passive-aggressive comment in there.

Now that's just being outright judgemental THL. I *hope* you have simply misinterpreted readymade's statement: the way I understand it, she's saying she'd like to go up to people who wear crosses AND are acting like jackasses and point out their hypocrisy. You are reacting like she meant people who are wearing crosses are acting like jackasses... a completely different thing. Readymade (if I'm interpreting it properly) is basically saying if you wear the symbols of a Christian religion, then directly contradict them in your actions, why shouldn't someone point that out? If I see someone wearing a cross or a Christian t-shirt or something, and they get into a fist fight, wouldn't I LOVE to call that person out as a jackass hypocrite? You bet I would!

I, personally, wouldn't do what the waitress did to someone wearing ANY kind of confrontational clothing; I do happen to think it's rude.

I'm afraid you are letting some true colors slip out. Originally, you described the "Athiests!" shirt as "meant to invite comment". Ok, that was reasonable (borderline though -- in cities like Portland, SF, or Seattle, that shirt would not be meriting comment or even a second glance). Next, you called it "confrontational". Finally, you are saying it's "rude to wear it". That is exactly the opposite of live-and-let-live and in fact very representative of an "in your face" religious attitude which you claim you have never encountered!

However, that she was rude doesn't mean that your husband wasn't looking for a confrontation and trying to get someone else to look like the one who "started it".

Again, his shirt would not be "looking for confrontation" in sooooo many other cities. NYC, Chicago, LA, Vegas, etc... I could list many more. Considering readymade and her DH are transplants (and as such, probably lived in cities like I've mentiond) and Austin has the reputation for a "live and let live" attitude (as you have espoused on many occasions)... given all that... I can say that I believe her husband was NOT looking for a confrontation. He was probably just caught thinking things were a little different around here than they actually are. Besides, it wasn't like he was wearing it in a setting that should offend anyone like a church, or school, or daycare, or even a restaurant that might cater to religious-types (like Luby's or something).. He was wearing it at a cafe on South Freaking Congress!

readymade -- if it makes you feel any better, I've lived here for 20 years, and I'd be freaked out by the things you describe. Even if I weren't at your table, I'd be talking to the manager about his waitress if I heard that crap. I may still do that, even. When stuff like that happens, it's not just the person the waitress has a beef with that gets upset.. as you know, it's all the people around, like you (and your family members) who have to sit there and have your meal ruined as you spend the rest of the day thinking about what you should have said to the misguided waitress. Hopefully, she was from Dallas or something and not too representative of the locals.

[TexasHorseLady]

Did I say that I was trying to make the argument that Austin is "liberal"? It all depends on what you mean by "liberal", I guess. I've never thought of Austin as being particular on the fringes of liberal OR conservative - that's one of its glories, that it bypasses all of that nonsense to a great extent. (By "nonsense", I mean that whole "you must think exactly like me" attitude that the people in so many places that proclaim how liberal or conservative they are seem to have - extreme liberals and conservatives, in political terms which is how those words are so often used these days, seem to be pretty identical in their base attitudes towards the freedom to think differently from them.)

Hopefully, she was from Dallas or something and not too representative of the locals.

Thing is, I don't think either the waitress OR the gentleman with the shirt were exhibiting true Austin values.

By the way, you're right, based on your quote above, I did miss a very important word, "and", between "crosses" and "acting" in the post I was responding to. That does change things dramatically. But put "t-shirts" in place of "crosses" and it gets a little bit more fuzzy.

I do, by the way, think that the husband (in his shirt) should have approached the manager. The waitress' behavior was inappropriate, as I said, and the manager should know that she's indulging in it.

[Jennibc]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

And then we get into the whole area of, "Well, since the person wearing the confrontational item of clothing clearly wants to provoke a confrontation, is it rude or unfriendly not to give them one?"

So would wearing a shirt that says "Jesus love you" fall under clearly wanting to provoke confrontation?

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by Jennibc

So would wearing a shirt that says "Jesus love you" fall under clearly wanting to provoke confrontation?

Sure. Consciously or not. Thought I said that earlier.

[Jennibc]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

Sure. Consciously or not. Thought I said that earlier.

You might have. I posted that right after reading the post with that quote in it. I hadn't read the rest of the thread yet. So it was probably a little bit redundant.