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Thanks for the fun fact, but I don't think its 220 year history gives the question any more credibility. If you look at the history of this census question, it's quite apparent that it was to count "free white males," "free white females," "all other free persons" and "slaves." Slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person. I thought the US has moved on beyond this period of its history?
I think in the government's reasoning that you linked, it's quite disturbing that the race data is required for congressional districting. I'm sure the intent may be to create evenly race-distributed congressional districts, but in practice congressional redistricting has led to deeply divided political representation where nothing meaningful can get done.
I don't have any problem with the government collecting data on me, but I question why I am required to provide much of the information asked. I agree with persons being counted for distribution of federal funds and representation. However, everything else could be done reasonably accurately (and more often than every 10 years) with statistical sampling (of volunteers) rather than requiring a response from everyone. OK, so the government has race-based policies, whether I like it or not; but why should a requirement for me as an individual result to disclose my race? Why not include a question on my health to implement healthcare policy, or my occupation to implement labor laws, or my citizenship to implement immigration laws, or my IQ to implement education reform, where do you stop? Why do 5 minutes of the survey have to be spent answering questions that have nothing to do with counting people? To put it in perspective, that's one million hours of time lost for the nation which would take a statistical data collection agency much less time.
Here and here is a nice collection of some historic census forms. It looks like at times, people had it worse than today which random unrelated questions. "How many radios do you have?" "Are you able to read and write?" "Are you blind, deaf and dumb, idiotic, insane, or crippled?"
I'm surprised the 2010 census didn't include a question on how many iPhones are in each household.
That's all well and good. And you can believe whatever you want, I have NO problem with that. If you think half the census is a waste of time, that's okay too.
Where I have the problem, is when people (not you) come on forums and spread misinformation about the census, such as telling people they are only "consititutionally" required to answer the number of people living in the household. Not only is this incorrect but it is encouraging people to break the law. And to top it all off, now a census taker has to come to their house to manually ask the question. This is a waste of time and tax payer money.
So to be clear, if you think the census is stupid, more power to you. If you come on this forum, and post your OPINION on the census and back it up with some facts (like you did), then that makes me happy as a clam!!!
If you come on this forum and post misinformation and tell people that they don't legally have to do something, well, then I am going to point out that you are wrong.
And, I might get a little uppity about it, but that's because one of my pet peeves are conspiracy theorists. I don't understand why one person will say "the government can't do anything right" and then in the same breath say "and the government is made of a secret cabal of shadowy figures who want to destroy america."
Aren't these 2 statements anti-thetical? I mean, can a government be completely inept but also shadowy geniuses?
I have a freind that insists not only did America not land on the moon, but that no human being or government on earth has actually managed to get anything in space. It's all a cover up man. When you ask him how he makes phone calls without sattelites in space, he says "that's just what they want you to think man". It gets REALLY old after a while. If you have a theory, back it up dude.
That's all well and good. And you can believe whatever you want, I have NO problem with that. If you think half the census is a waste of time, that's okay too.
Where I have the problem, is when people (not you) come on forums and spread misinformation about the census, such as telling people they are only "consititutionally" required to answer the number of people living in the household. Not only is this incorrect but it is encouraging people to break the law. And to top it all off, now a census taker has to come to their house to manually ask the question. This is a waste of time and tax payer money.
So to be clear, if you think the census is stupid, more power to you. If you come on this forum, and post your OPINION on the census and back it up with some facts (like you did), then that makes me happy as a clam!!!
If you come on this forum and post misinformation and tell people that they don't legally have to do something, well, then I am going to point out that you are wrong.
And, I might get a little uppity about it, but that's because one of my pet peeves are conspiracy theorists. I don't understand why one person will say "the government can't do anything right" and then in the same breath say "and the government is made of a secret cabal of shadowy figures who want to destroy america."
Aren't these 2 statements anti-thetical? I mean, can a government be completely inept but also shadowy geniuses?
I have a freind that insists not only did America not land on the moon, but that no human being or government on earth has actually managed to get anything in space. It's all a cover up man. When you ask him how he makes phone calls without sattelites in space, he says "that's just what they want you to think man". It gets REALLY old after a while. If you have a theory, back it up dude.
do you think it's a case of conspiracy theorists or that some of us just don't think it's the government's business and filling out the form is a waste of our time? Hey, I used to work for the government (both local and federal level). As far as I can tell, most government agencies wouldn't be able to pull off a conspiracy. I just don't think my race should matter.
Now that we have established that I am not attacking you,
Quote:
Originally Posted by austinizer
JayBrown80,
Thanks for the fun fact, but I don't think its 220 year history gives the question any more credibility. If you look at the history of this census question, it's quite apparent that it was to count "free white males," "free white females," "all other free persons" and "slaves." Slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person. I thought the US has moved on beyond this period of its history?
.
Well, I think the US has moved beyond that, but others may disagree.
Keep in mind though, the collection of information regarding racial makeup is used for a lot more than just evenly distributing congressional districts (frankly, i don't even know how they can do that without gerrymandering).
For instance, it is a sad fact that heart disease is the number one killer of African American women in this country. An african american woman is 35% more likely to die from heart disease than a white woman. Since almost all hospitals and clinics recieve government funding of some sort, knowing where there are large concentrations of African American populatons, let's the government know which states and counties should recieve funds in order to open cardiac clinics. Now, some may call that affrimative action, I just call it good planning.
And no, the prevalence of heart disease amongst African Americans is not just socio-economic based. Black people are no more likely to be poor than white people.
This is just one example off the top of my head. I am sure there are dozens of other reasonable and sound examples that prompted the government to include the questions they included. To be perfectly frank, I think it is arrogant to imagine that you have all the intelligence, studies, and facts that are available to the designers of the census. Maybe, you don't. Maybe in this case, we the citizenry do not have all the information we need in order to made a definitive case of "this question is none of the governments buisness".
And as a white man, it probably seems unnecessary to me to let the government know my racial background. But I am sure that the people that craft our immigration laws find it pretty dang interesting. And to be frank, my liberal hispanic friends love that question. Because if the census shows that there are 30 million extra hispanic people in America, maybe certain political parties will stop attacking hispanics all the time. Don't want to lose them votes after all.
And I really really wish they would have included the "do you identify as a homosexual" question this year, just so that we wouldn't have to guess anymore at how many americans are gay. I for one would like that number to be out there in neon lights, so that when certain political parties attack gay people, they know just how many votes they are losing. But that's just a personal hope of mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by austinizer
Here and here is a nice collection of some historic census forms. It looks like at times, people had it worse than today which random unrelated questions. "How many radios do you have?" "Are you able to read and write?" "Are you blind, deaf and dumb, idiotic, insane, or crippled?"
I'm surprised the 2010 census didn't include a question on how many iPhones are in each household.
Random to you maybe.
I am sure though that since the government was taking on the cost of expanding the nations radio antenna array, basically making radio available to every American household, it was quite pertient to know how many Americans actually HAD radios and would benefit from this.
Knowing a nations literacy rate is vitally important. Especially during a time when public schooling was not available to all citizens. How do you convince congress to build 100 new schools? Maybe by showing them evidence that half the country couldn't read.
Now that we have HIPPA and an interconnected hospital/medical system, we can reasonably rely on the medical field to provide correct information on how many Americans are special needs, namely blind, deaf and dumb, idiotic, insane, or crippled. You don't think this information is important? If the census showed that there were 80,000 new cases of blindness from one decade to the next, don't you think the government should know and investigate that? Especially if the blindness were occuring in one geograpic area. Isn't that important to know? Or do you still consider that "random and unrelated"?
And by the way, the above example of blindness, is a perfect example of why "statistical sampling" of volunteers does NOT work. "Volunteers" is just a fancy word for middle-aged, white middle class or rich. Period. When they do phone surveys for statistical sampling the people that typically answer the phone (without hanging up) are white housewives/husbands. You dont' get information from the younger generation (they have cellphones), you don't get information from single parents (they are too busy), you don't get information from possible illegals (they dont' answer the phone), you don't get information from the poor (no phone, no time, no patience). You also don't get good information on geographical effects on the citizenries health. If every other child in Far Bend Mississippi suddenly goes blind, the government may never know, because they did a "statistical sampling" in Near Bend Mississippi this year. Hey, it's all the same, right?
The census provides information that is FAR to vital to just depend on some bored housewife being willing to pick up the phone. Statistical sampling is all well and good for some things, but not the census.
The census takes less than 10 minutes to filll out, we have to do it once a decade. I just don't see why that is so off putting. When someone says they "don't have the time" to fill out the census I think, "really, every 10 years is too much to ask?". That's like saying "I didn't have time to stop at that red light, I was running late". You are responsible for the census, it doesn't matter if you view it as a waste of time. I think it's a waste of time to put on pants in the morning. I still make time though because that is what is expected of me.
Last edited by JayBrown80; 04-01-2010 at 01:53 PM..
do you think it's a case of conspiracy theorists or that some of us just don't think it's the government's business and filling out the form is a waste of our time? Hey, I used to work for the government (both local and federal level). As far as I can tell, most government agencies wouldn't be able to pull off a conspiracy. I just don't think my race should matter.
No, I feel certain it's conspiracy theorists, and to a lesser degree, people who just don't like the government for whatever reason.
As to why you dont' think your race should matter, more power to you. I can only provide examples of why it does.
If you are already of the mindset to be anti-goverment, then there is really nothing I can do to convince you. We will just have to disagree, which is fine. As long as you aren't telling people to break the law.
But really though, why don't you think it's the governments buisness? You expect the government (thru your taxes) to build roads, provide schools, fund hospitals, fund police stations, fund fire departments, provide vaccines, regulate agricutural, inspect your foods, flouridate your water, and keep 3 eyed fish out of our rivers. And when they ask you to fill out a form helping them do these things more effectively, your response is "It's none of your buisness!!! I am an American!!!! I don't have to do anything!!!! I can be obstinate for the sake of being obstinate!!" (Not saying you do that JenniBC, I am just stating that seems to be the attitude out there).
So, all government is bad, they are inept, they are collecting information for some shadowy purpose. So naturally we ignore our census forms as a matter of principle. But boy, I wonder what would happen if Tomorrow the government said "okay, no one lives in pflugerville b/c we didn't get any census forms. Let's cut the funding to fire department, schools, and roads in half". Oh well, you don't need roads, you have principle!!!
This thread has resulted in an interesting discussed what exactly is legally required of a person receiving a Census form or survey. I'm not a lawyer but I believe this is the statutory (not constitutional) law governing offenses and penalties in connection with the Census. It provides for a fine not to exceed $100 for refusing or neglecting any of the Census questions; $500 for willfully false answers; $500 for homeowners for refusal to assist Census takers in counting the population in their house; $1000 or up to one year imprisonment for suggestions or information to the Department of Commerce with the intent to cause an inaccurate Census count.
I believe a similar (or identical?) law applies to the much more detailed questions of the American Community Survey (ACS) which has replaced the "long form" Census that was previous sent to one out of six households.
And by the way, the above example of blindness, is a perfect example of why "statistical sampling" of volunteers does NOT work. "Volunteers" is just a fancy word for middle-aged, white middle class or rich.
Great point. It's about as reliable as self-selected samples to generate opinion polls. The iconic image of Harry Truman holding up the "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline tells the whole story.
Since that absurd example of self-selection as a basis for sampling public opinion, statisticians have learned how to conduct scientific polls with known standard deviations and probability curves. But most people don't understand this. Liberals insist that polls are biased in favor of conservatives, conservatives are convinced that polls are biased toward liberals, and conspiracy theorists think that polls are designed to brainwash us into accepting a phony majority opinion.
The census itself is a very difficult thing to pull off with any degree of accuracy with respect to illegals, the poor, the illiterate and the homeless. I'd guess that addicts are also prone to avoiding the census because they're not connected to any reality beyond getting whatever substances they prefer.
This thread has resulted in an interesting discussed what exactly is legally required of a person receiving a Census form or survey. I'm not a lawyer but I believe this is the statutory (not constitutional) law governing offenses and penalties in connection with the Census. It provides for a fine not to exceed $100 for refusing or neglecting any of the Census questions; $500 for willfully false answers; $500 for homeowners for refusal to assist Census takers in counting the population in their house; $1000 or up to one year imprisonment for suggestions or information to the Department of Commerce with the intent to cause an inaccurate Census count.
I believe a similar (or identical?) law applies to the much more detailed questions of the American Community Survey (ACS) which has replaced the "long form" Census that was previous sent to one out of six households.
Yeah, in my first post on this thread (which was a really long post, I know, I tend to do that) I linked the actual article of the consitution which states that congress is empowered to conduct a census. I linked the congressional law regarding the census. I linked the penalties you mentioned above. And I linked 3 court cases where the legality and consititutionality of the census were upheld.
So hopefully at this point the posts on this thread are about "why does the census ask this" and "the census is a pain in the ass" and we can discuss that. Hopefully we are done with "the government can't LEGALLY make me do this".
As far as the anti-government "all government is inept" people, well, I realize that complaining about the government is a time honored tradition that will never go away. Oh well. Isn't it possible to disagree with the government, WITHOUT calling them a bunch of morons? I mean, is it possible that senators are actually able intelligent people that just don't happen to agree with you?
I mean, I was not a huge fan of GWBush, and I didn't really appreciate his policies against homosexuals. Or the way he constantly demeaned and demonized them. But I didn't take it personally, I knew he was just trying to get votes from other homophobes. I mean, I understood that the real problem was the homophobes in the house across the street, not the house at pennsylvania avenue.
Last edited by JayBrown80; 04-01-2010 at 02:25 PM..
I'm a very data driven person myself and have absolutely no problem with the government (or anyone, for that matter) collecting all kinds of statistics.
However, if you read more closely into this topic, you will find many references which claim that a Census (an actual count of everyone) is not as accurate as (and far more expensive than) statistical sampling. I'm not talking about a phone survey where 500 people are called to predict an election outcome. I'm talking about well designed surveys, where as much of the survey bias is removed as possible. The government is already moving in this direction with the American Community Survey (still, response is required by law on this one). I'm sure there must also be a way to design surveys without coercion.
One thing I will predict is that the illegal immigrant population will be undercounted with the Census and it it will probably affect funding and representation for Texas. When the 2006 Census Test was conducted, apparently a lot of them were living in my area and the official who came to collect my Census data said the one's he's visited were very mistrusting that the Census bureau will not share the data with immigration enforcement (I know the Census bureau is not allowed to share such data, but it's tough for illegal immigrants whose future here is at stake to trust that).
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