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Although I have some reservations about the Arizona law - it is none of Austin's business what Arizona does. I think it is a sad thing when one of the United States stops respecting the right of another state to pass laws as they see fit.
Americans, and conservatives especially, are so eager to give up the ideals that make this country great. Just the fact that there are examples given on this thread like "that's how they do it in Europe" make me shudder.
So when we model our health care system on European systems, that's unpatriotic and socialist. But when we shred the constitution and require citizens to carry papers and also go so far as to say that LEARNING about minorities is now a thought crime, well that is true blue Americanism. It makes me weep for the nation.
It reminds me of a book I read about World War I when high schools and colleges around the country started dropping German as a language elective. And when companies started renaming sauerkraut as "freedom cabbage". It was just pointless pandering.
And that's what this Arizona bill is. Pointless pandering. And it's also bullying, because it targets the weakest link in this chain. The illegal immigrant. The person that doesn't have the ability to vote, the person that is being paid $2/hr for labor. The one that can't defend himself in anyway.
The REAL villian in this scenario is the American buisness owner, who hires these immigrants. But politicians won't go after them, because then they will lose those fat donation checks. I am mystified that the guy who is desperately trying to feed his family on $2/hr is more evil than the guy that pays him those wages. It's like telling a battered wife "well why did you get in the way of your husbands fist?"
If the state of Arizona was SERIOUS about it's illegal immigration problem, then they would have empowered the police to start going into places of buisness, into restaurants, and into the rich neighborhoods and demanding that all the rich people start proving that their waiters, their bus boys, their maids, their nannies, and their gardners are all legal documented workers.
But the state of Arizona won't do that, because you don't get reelected by pissing off rich people.
And that's why this bill is pandering pointless bullying. And in the fullness of time, we will see that, and we will be ashamed.
Just like we are ashamed of the eradication of our Native American population (which by the way llkltk, something that was also very popular at the time). Just like we are ashamed of Japanese internment camps, something else that was very popular. Just like we are ashamed of McCarthyism, something else that was popular at the time. Just like we are ashamed of segregation and slavery, something else that was popular at the time. The list goes on and on.
Americans seemed doomed to repeat their history over and over again. This is the true failing of conservative policies. When do we stop with the hate and actually enact sensible solutions to the problems facing our nation? Immigration reform is not that tough to fix, but in a knee jerk reaction towards the failings of the federal government, Arizona has resorted to racism. How does telling a college they cannot teach ethnic studies in anyway keep Mexicans from jumping the border? It doesn't, but some racist hopped up conservative heard that and got a grin from ear to ear! And that's how you get reelected. You pander to the basest instincts that mankind had.
But to be honest, I am pleased that Arizona did this. Because Republicans DEPEND on the Hispanic vote to stay in power in the south. And by telling every person with brown skin "we are watching you!", then they are just further pushing the party to the brink of collapse. And frankly, that can only be good for our country.
Obviously the Austin City Council's move is largely symbolic. I'm in favor of them sending a message that they don't support Arizona's draconian, flagrantly unconstitutional law.
There are so many problems with this law that I don't see how it will hold up in the courts. How do we determine what constitutes "reasonable suspicion" that a person is an illegal immigrant? This clause opens the way for racial profiling and possible violations of the fourth and thirteenth amendments of the U.S. Constitution.
For those of you who think this bill is a good idea, I urge you to read the ACLU's point-by-point rebuttal of this bill and decide for yourself if you still think the bill is legally-sound: http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/0...CLUAZImmig.pdf
I personally will be boycotting Arizona. I know I won't make much of a dent in the state's economy, but I can't in conscience support a state passing this kind of legislation.
I agree with you fully about going after the business owner. In fact, I would love to see it common practice for the INS to bring aiding and abetting charges against the business owners that hire them.
What I don't agree with you is the view that it's racism. It is true that most of the issue is focused around the latino community due to the higher amount of the population that is from there but in my view it's not limited to them. It's to any illegal immigrant that is in the US be it from Asia, Europe, Africa, or Latin America.
I gave in my example Germany because that is the most like America in many ways and by far the least severe. Brazil, Mexico, China, and Thailand are much worse if you don't have documentation on you. Shoot, when I was in China in the early 90's I wasn't even allowed outside the tourist zones without an escort.
With this whole debate (along with health care and many other social dilemmas that face us) shows the true weakness of a democratic system of government. It is about trying to pander to the masses and not bite the hand that feeds you. Both parties are the same way. The only differences between the parties are the special interests that are represented. It will never be a Utopian system where all people are treated fairly and equally unfortunately as long as there is greed and self interest in the human psychology.
We have tried different approaches in the past including mass immigration under Reagan and stricter enforcement under Clinton. Neither have worked all that well as the problem still exists. If you remember right, there is a law on the books since 1996 that makes it illegal illegal for states and municipalities to take any action that prevents the reporting of illegal immigrants to federal immigration authorities. Unfortunately, this is rarely enforced.
Unfortunately, we as a country do not have the power to change that other than boycotting products and services that come from that country. If we are so upset at Arizona for passing this law, why are we not as upset or more upset with countries like Mexico because they do not enact social change to give their people more opportunities at home instead of having to come to America to seek those opportunities? Laws like this are unfortunately a reaction to an effect of an issue and not the root cause of the issue. So as American we have a choice. We can either not give them a reason to come here in the form of protective laws and punishing the enablers that give them the work and opportunities or punish the countries that have the substandard living conditions that are forcing their people to leave in droves.
Last edited by bmw88rider; 05-14-2010 at 11:31 AM..
I agree with much that has been said by Jay and BMW88rider. I think the culprits in the illegal immigration problem are 1. the Mexican government, which does not supply education, employment, medical care and hope for its people, 2. Employers in the US, who exploit illegals for their own enrichment, and 3. people in the US who don't go after those employers for reasons others have outlined and 4. people who are racist and like to hide that sentiment by ignoring the issues above and blaming the whole problem on the illegals. I have also been frustrated by the problems caused by having undocumented immigrants overwhelming our job market and support systems, but I have to step back from my resentment and think about the roots of the problem. I think Arizona is wrong in its legislation, and that solutions that are well thought out are needed. I don't know if we will ever be able to do that in view of our reluctance as a society to think deeply (not emotionally) about solutions that attack the root causes, not the symptoms, of problems.
Unfortunately, we as a country do not have the power to change that other than boycotting products and services that come from that country. If we are so upset at Arizona for passing this law, why are we not as upset or more upset with countries like Mexico because they do not enact social change to give their people more opportunities at home instead of having to come to America to seek those opportunities? Laws like this are unfortunately a reaction to an effect of an issue and not the root cause of the issue. So as American we have a choice. We can either not give them a reason to come here in the form of protective laws and punishing the enablers that give them the work and opportunities or punish the countries that have the substandard living conditions that are forcing their people to leave in droves.
I don't disagree with what you are saying, because I think you see what I am getting at.
If illegal immigration is really a problem, then this law does nothing to solve that problem.
Laws bind American citizens and remove a portion of their freedom in order to support the common good. Therefore any law that is enacted must be enacted in good faith with a reasonable expectation that it protects the public. This law solves no problem nor supports the common good. It is a bad law.
As long as 1) things are desperate in Mexico and 2) Americans seldom get penalized for hiring illegal immigrants, then 3) There will be desperate illegals looking for jobs.
Since the Arizona bill does nothing to curb problems 1 and 2, then it is an ineffectual law that only BULLIES illegal immigrants (who are desperate to begin with). It also gives police the ability to stop American citizens without probable cause based only upon the clothing they wear or the color of their skin. Americans are protected from illegal searches and seizures by the 4th admendment. This Arizona law does not respect that.
I am about as liberal as they come, but even when issues arise that I don't agree with (such as rednecks being able to own an arsenal) I have to cowtow to the Constitution of the land. So when the "gun control" debate comes up, even though the idea of an armed population of racist hicks scares the hell out of me, I have to acquiese that the Constitution thru the 2nd admendment allows the citizenry to keep and bear arms. Even the members of the citzenry that I do not like.
By the same token, the Fourth admendment protects AMERICAN CITIZENS (even the brown ones) from being illegally searched and questioned without probable cause. Being of hispanic origin does not constitute probable cause.
Life would be much easier at times if we just ignored the constitution in light of public opinion. But we can't do that. There are certain ideals that bind us together as Americans.
We want to pay $1.80 for beef. We want onions at .69c a pound. We want our lawns mowed and our toilets cleaned. We want Walmart. But we don't want to pay for what these things are actually worth. So we turn a blind eye when the illegal immigrant is stocking store shelves for $2 bucks an hour.
And yes, all boycotts are symbolic. No one is disputing that. For every outraged citizen that boycotts something, there is another citizen paying extra to pick up the slack. Just because they are symbolic, does not make them worthless. A hallmark of our society is the ability to non-violently protest and bring attention to injustice. Boycotting is a part of that.
And please don't tell me that this is not racially motivated. If it wasn't, what was the purpose of diallowing ethnic studies at schools? I mean come on. What you have is positive glee at the bullying powers that the more thugish member of our citizenry now get to wield. And that's all they are, thugs. A large portion of our population is nothing but hateful thugs. Just look at some of the people who have posted on this thread. Then go read some of their other posts. You will see a positively nasty streak of hate and bullying.
These people always exist on the periphery of society. And every now and then the good people stop standing up to them, and they rush in enacting racist laws and conducting witch hunts. These people share the same philosophy of those who enacted Japanese Interment camps, of those who supported segregation, of those who cheered on McCarthyism. They are always there. The only reason they briefly have power over society is because normal people get blinded by propaganda. Don't allow their propaganda to trick you bmw88rider.
Any law the removes the rights and freedoms of people is an evil. Sometimes it is unfortunately a necessary evil. This is not one of those times. This law provides no solvency to the issues it was designed to combat. All good people and true patriotic Americans should oppose it on principle.
When Americans are ready to pay $15 a quart for strawberries and $5 for a head of lettuce (lettuce is a billion dollar business in AZ) then come talk about illegal immigration!
If you are against illegal immigration then you should spend all day every day fighting against US agriculture subsidies, get rid of the subsidies and then farm workers from Mexico and Latin America can stay home and compete on price for agriculture goods. NAFTA destroyed Mexican agriculture.
AZ law is stupid because it won't be effective, the economic desperation is so great in Mexico and central American, and suffering and debt incurred is so large just to make the journey here, that greater police harassment in AZ won't make any difference. People will still come.
The GOP is barely a national party anymore. The future is of America is largely hispanic (compare the demographics of kindergartens and nursing homes) and that future isn't going to belong to the GOP!
I think it'd be cool in the future if our Hispanic overlords pass a law requiring all potential European illegal immigrants to carry proof of citizenship. Karma is a *****.
We all benefit from illegals. there's not a house in Austin that's not being built by illegals. Pretty much every hotel room is cleaned by them too. Even in fancy restaurants, prep cooks down to dishwashers tend to be illegals. There's probably very, very few citizens that don't benefit or directly financially support illegal immigrant labor on a daily basis.
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No one is disputing that. For every outraged citizen that boycotts something, there is another citizen paying extra to pick up the slack. Just because they are symbolic, does not make them worthless. A hallmark of our society is the ability to non-violently protest and bring attention to injustice. Boycotting is a part of that. 
