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Then explain the Swedes with FWD cars like Volvo and Saab?
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer
Front wheel drive is crappy in the snow and ice.
The torque steer will get you into trouble. Trying to get your self out of a skid is a night mare especially when going down hill.
fwd is good on flat straight roads, unfortunately the roads around here are not flat or straight.
Fe see a lot of fwd stuck in the snow bank especially right at the apex of a curve.
RWD or 4wd for me, just add some weight over the rear wheels in the winter, at least you can get out of a skid easier and you can use the throttle to steer.
An opinion from someone who has driven both in the summer and the winter.
Volvo, for example, obtains impressive 2WD traction in snow by shifting approximately 400 pounds from the ideal rear axle weight bearing (52%) to its front wheels. That ends up with a nose heavy configuration of 61%-39% and is the only reason it is even driveable in the snow. Do I want to drive a car with a 61%-39% bias? Heck no.
Would you want to drive a RWD car with 600 pounds of junk in the trunk? That's what it would take to get to a 61-39 distribution for a typical rear wheel drive car. But, if you did that, it would perform far better in every respect than the Volvo.
excellent post!! Every *expert* here who thinks FWD cannot work should read your link here.. It will educate them
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63
This is ONLY aproblem when drag racing 9and a good set of wheelie bars will transfer weight forward again, minimizing it), or going up hill on snow. And it's ONLY a problem when using enought throttle to actually shift a significant amount of weight, and you shoul not be usint full throttle trying to take off on teh street anyhow, especially in teh snow in ANY car. Oh, that's rigth, you can accellerate at full throttle in a RWD car in teh snow, too, 'casue, you knw, RWD cars NEVER break traction and fishtail under ful throttle in the snow...
Guys, ti's time to stop using theory and get out into the real world. iv'e raced FWD and RWD cars, drive both in performance situyations and inclement weather situations, and a poorly set up RWD car is as bad or worse as a poorly set up FWD car. And until you reach the upper limits of performance (faster than 9 second drag cars, and GT1/Formula car levels of road race performance), FWD is as useable and as capable as RWD.
This is a reprint of an article from 1988, dealing with a comparison between two identicall chassis road race cars on teh same team, one converterted to FWD (same engines, same basic cars). We've come a long way in FWD cars since then, but it's interesting to note the similarities and capabilities:
When autocrossing, I was asked by a few drivers outthere "when did Ford start making RWD Contours?" The car was so neutral in corners that you could actually get on throttle oversteer, and carry slight drifts through the sweepers, just like a RWD car. You used identical inputs to do identical things as in my old 911 and RX7 race cars. Incredibly responsive to turn-in, more than adequately quick in stock form (it was only 200 hp), and comfy to take long distance trips in (like Seattle to Baltimore). I have a LOT of direct experience in FWD and RWD performance cars over the last 30 years. I know better than to dismiss car solely on which end is driving it.
Yes I do,
I add around 400# to 600# placed over the rear axle of my 4wd pickup. This way I don't have to use 4wd as much and it balances out the truck.
On our 4wd suv I add 200#.
Then when you stop to help a fwd that is stuck you will have some sand to help in traction and you will have an easier time pulling then out of the ditch.
As for the swedes the cars are not fwd because of the climate tho you could try to argue it.
It is to save space as they like a smaller car and some claim it is more efficient.
If it had to do with climate they would be 4wd.
Sure you can play one foot on the gas one on the brake, a hand on the wheel while the other hand shifts or works the parking break to maintain control, but why?
I wonder why they don't make a fwd pick-up?
ps the race car analogy is a hoot. I wonder why nascar or indy cars haven't gone to fwd. Now lets get off of the track and back to real world driving conditions.
ps the race car analogy is a hoot. I wonder why nascar or indy cars haven't gone to fwd.
A little thing called rules. Indy had FWD cars, The Millers that were eventually ruled out. Then someone tried AWD. It got banned. NASCAR is based on a simple V8 RWD formula due to the rules based on the makes of cars that started it.
If you're gonna be dense, we're gonna call you out on it. And in this case, you're being INCREDIBLY ingorant and full of crap.
How many road race cars have you built and raced? Rallye cars? What, specifically, is your expertise in chassis dynamics other than "I once put some extra mass in my truck to make it work better in the snow.."?
Sorry, but FWD IS better in the snow than RWD with similar tires. AWD is better yet. For the same reason that pulling a rope is better than pushing it. Inclement weather changes a lot of the dynamics.
If it (fwd)was better and safer the rules would be changed.
I have never seen a rally car that was not modified.
apples to apples not apples to oranges.
Like I said, if you like judging the clutch, brakes, fuel, steering and parking break all at the same time like a rally car driver does then by all means get a fwd.
Yet a lot of them are 4wd or as you like to call it awd.
What do you think 4wd is? hint its what you call awd.
At least with a rwd vehicle you can easily change its handling characteristics, with a fwd your stuck with a crappy handling vehicle.
My experience,
Local dirt track, street stock,10years, and 39 years of driving experience 1/2 of that in the winter and in the mountains, driving on frozen lakes in the northland, plowing snow for 29years.
ps
I worked at various ski areas where we would try to drive up the ski runs in the winter.(at night while the area was closed)
The fwd's failed going up a steep run as the weight would transfer to the rear, a surprisingly good car was a rwd delta 88 with 300# in the trunk and of course any 4wd also did very well
Last edited by snofarmer; 01-06-2011 at 10:47 AM..
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little ****ed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to ****in' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?
Well something amusing needs to come out of a thread created by a person named "DramaLlama" with only one post who has yet to respond to the thread they created.
I'm not a troll. Just curious and I'm sitting back reading peoples responses/opinions. I just found out about this forum and this happens to be my first thread.
sometimes they change rules merely to exclude certain car makers to try to make things "fair" for other car makers. Remember when a certain race changed their rules making it so Ford's GT40 could no longer win their races? Before AWD, FWD vehicles won many world rally races. You put a skilled race driver in a sporty FWD car and he'll beat a regular street driver in a RWD sports car around the track. If RWD alone was so great, then take a MazdaSpeed3 to a race track and race it against a Buick Road Master or 1996 Chevy Impala SS. A sporty RWD against a sporty FWD with experienced drivers, similiar HP/torque, and weight I'd give the race to the RWD car. But that doesn't mean FWD is complete garbage the way some here are making it out to be. Oh, and if RWD is so good in the snow, then why do you have to add weight to the back of the car? I do agree that for towing like with a truck, RWD is the only way to go. The weight of the towed vehicle is added to the rear wheels giving you more traction for towing. FWD can tow, but only light weight towing. My 2003 Malibu owners manual says it's safe to tow only up to 1,000 lbs. That's like a small U-Haul trailer or ATV/motorcycle including trailer. FWD can tow, but I wouldn't want to tow with FWD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer
If it (fwd)was better and safer the rules would be changed.
I have never seen a rally car that was not modified.
apples to apples not apples to oranges.
Like I said, if you like judging the clutch, brakes, fuel, steering and parking break all at the same time like a rally car driver does then by all means get a fwd.
Yet a lot of them are 4wd or as you like to call it awd.
What do you think 4wd is? hint its what you call awd.
At least with a rwd vehicle you can easily change its handling characteristics, with a fwd your stuck with a crappy handling vehicle.
My experience,
Local dirt track, street stock,10years, and 39 years of driving experience 1/2 of that in the winter and in the mountains, driving on frozen lakes in the northland, plowing snow for 29years.
I'm not a troll. Just curious and I'm sitting back reading peoples responses/opinions. I just found out about this forum and this happens to be my first thread.
Just of curiosity, exactly what were you trying to determine?
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