American Muscle Cars(from the past to the present) vs Exotic European Cars(from past to present) (tires, biggest)
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Excellent points! Couldnt have said it better. Adds to the satisfaction of being in the GT-500 (MSRP was like 45K) with less tha 5K in mods and seeing the face of a wealthy billionaire in his three quarter million dollar 850HP exotic (oh yea, add the platinum blonde Playboy bunny in the pass side) as he takes aim on the lowly Ford on the interstate. Then watches the S-H-E-L-B-Y letters quickly dissapear before his eyes. Sure is all fun...
haha just the whine of the supercharger from the shelby is awsome then you add the burble of the V-8 it is music to my ears
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UskMEV0Z4Ys
it will be sad when this cars get killed by gas price just like in the 70's so get well you can the modren muscle car era is a great time for gear heads
that super snake GT-500 makes 635RWHP! on the dyno
great comparison Tom.. I figured the Shelby would take care of the Challenger but i wanted to know if it was close.. Whats amazing is that the Shelby is a small motor. 330 cubes..
He he, good question. As I already stated i'm one of those old diehard Mopar Musclecar guys. But gotta be honest here, the new Chrysler stuff is what it is. You put the SRT8 Challenger 6.2L lined up vs. the Shelby GT-500 and take a Vette Z06 in this drag race and the Challenger finishes FOURTH. For sure, Ford and Chevrolets Corvette seems to be from different planets at this time!
The Challenger looks really nice, especially from the front however its the same car as the Magnum wagon and the Charger SRT built on the exact same platform. Damn heavy car. My brother just sold (his) Magnum R/T last week, was a 5.7L AWD and pretty hopped up. The car was fun, it could really "get it on" and was flat out fast but is clearly not in the class with even the new GT Mustangs with the new 302 engine.
To compare old vs new Mopar: Last year when I was still using the factory Hi-Po manifolds and smallish 650 Eddy Thunder carb on my '70 Dusters stroker smallblock (killed me for 59 peak HP on the dyno vs the TTI step headers) . The Duster could walk on the 5.7L Hemi Magnum easy. I smoked a new black Challenger RT last spring as well with the Duster.
His Magnum ran mid 13's @ 104 which is pretty good at 4400 lbs. My Duster was low 13's (street tires) with the tiny carb and HP robbing manifolds with only a 3.55:1 gear. ET was 106-108 mph. I was getting aweful reaction times, should have cut 12's despite the damn manifolds but that my my driver error. I'm still a bit quicker that even the SRT8 Challenger. I can tell you even with the 800 Edelbrock and TTI headers installed on the Duster- after the dyno tune the car will be easy low 12's and I wouldnt even think of coaxing the supercharged Vette or a Shelby GT500KR
I am building a 451 from a 400 block right now for an ex girlfriends 68 Cuda. But I seriously am considering selling it and building a new syle 5.7 hemi instead. I know I can make a pump gas without power adder 650+hp with the new hemi. In fact the parts combo I came up with last year is nearly the same as what BES won the engine masters contest with last year, only my cam same specs except on a 111 LSA. Of course his dual distributor is worth coping!
Back to the first post, I think the comparison was American Muscle (past and present) vs the foreign exotics.
Between my brother and I, we have a collection of restored old school MoPar Muscle Cars (magazine published AND calendar published). Restoring, driving and racing Mopar Musclecars has been a lifelong passion for both of us. The '70 Duster 340 is a stroker, and crazy ffffast. The '70 Challenger R/T has a 550HP big block and is also a scary ride. We're both experienced racers, the cars are modified to handle MUCH better than they were equipped from the factory over 40 years ago. Can tell you first hand, the 60's era muscle does not handle for beans. Count out any and all 60's-'70's era American cars from the "handling" dept.
Strait line acceleration/performance is another story, however this brings up a few more items to be addressed. Comparing OLD muscle to NEW modern muscle (factory stock vs factory stock) the new American supercars win hands down. I'm talking cars like the Shelby GT-500 Mustangs and 'Vette Zo6, 6.2L Hemi Challengers and the highest HP Camaro's. In order to match performance 1/4 mi times, the older musclecars need a serious injection of hard ca$h. 3 speed autos and 4 spd manuals seriously hamper driveability when used with the appropraite gear ratios for hard acceleration. You can make OLD really fast, be prepered to dump 50-60K into an 11 sec ride that you can drive 40 miles to a cruise nite.
OK, now onto New American Muscle vs the Exotics. Also in our stable is a modified '08 Shelby GT-500 Mustang. the 5.4L is chassis dyno'd at just under 1,000 crank HP. Get this, STOCK camshaft and factory heads!!!! Car can do better than 19MPG highway to boot. Runs 9's on the 1/4mi dragstrip, and is not close to being the quickest Shelby GT-500 we've ever seen. There are guys running high 8's on street driven Shelbys out there.. Have we ever raced the exotics?? Funny you ask. Have yet to meet our match on the street except for 2 very fast new Corvettes..One was a modified Z06, the other the supercharged ZR1. To their credit, they kept up pretty damn good! Fender to fender. The Shelby has manhandled and embarrased some of the most expensive and fastest Exotic European cars made. The humiliation on the face of a dude who thinks he's all that and a 6-pack to watch a FORD haze the tires at 100+ mph and leave his $490,000 car looking for a hiding space is priceless. Certainly one of the pleasure in life. My vote for American Muscle vs. the Exotics... I'll take the new 'Vettes and what Carroll Shelby is doing with Ford anyday.
I do agree with most of your post, however 50-60k into an older muscle car is alot too high of an estimate, unless you just throw money away. I have a 408" Pontiac that made 653hp on pump gas at 6500 rpm, no nos, no blower, all engine. It's in a 64 Tempest that we just went to Sikeston, Mo. with and in the 1/8 it ran a 6.01 at 119 mph. We drove it the 165 miles back home. That is with a TH400 and 3.89 rear gear in the 9", M&H's new "MINI TUB" tires, (28x what looks like 12" of thread, but it fits well on the 10" wide rims). I originally built this 408 in 2004, with kre d-ports with heavy port work, but i replaced those porious water leakers with the Roland Racing CV-1 heads (www.rolandracing.com) and this winter put new rings in it along with a new distributor (went to a Mallory from the old msd). My dyno is a 2000hp Land and Sea double absorbtion unit. There has been 2 engines on it that showed 37-40 less hp then on other dyno's. I'd much rather have it rate an engine conseveratively than the magazine over hyped type ratings. Including the 4500 for the body, 9500 in the engine, 600 in the trans, 1200 in the convertor, and the 1200 in the rearend, thats alot less than 50-60k. When it gets repainted next month, and interior done I will have a total of under 20k in it. I am suspecting from Saturday nights passes at Sikeston, this will be a nice easy to drive high 9 second car.
Excellent points! Couldnt have said it better. Adds to the satisfaction of being in the GT-500 (MSRP was like 45K) with less tha 5K in mods and seeing the face of a wealthy billionaire in his three quarter million dollar 850HP exotic (oh yea, add the platinum blonde Playboy bunny in the pass side) as he takes aim on the lowly Ford on the interstate. Then watches the S-H-E-L-B-Y letters quickly dissapear before his eyes. Sure is all fun...
Tom, your comment about the platinum blond reminded me of a situation about 10 years ago on a trip back to NJ from LRP.
A group of us were driving back in our Cobra replicas when we came upon a Ferrari with the blond in the passenger seat and the Gentlemen's Quartley model wannabe behind the drivers seat.
Of course the smart thing to do was to just slowly pass him by but car guys don't always do the smart thing.
So of course I started the foolishness by making a little noise with my Cobra and I enticed Mr Ferrari into a little high speed acceleration nonsense. We both punched it at about 60 MPH and I quickly pulled ahead but I am smart enough to know you can't out run a Ferrari in a high speed race. He caught and passed me of course like I knew he would but I can bet his GF was asking him why that little red car jumped out in front of him so quickly.
In the end he won the high speed chase and he drove off with the blond and what the heck was the point of this post anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UskMEV0Z4Ys
it will be sad when this cars get killed by gas price just like in the 70's so get well you can the modren muscle car era is a great time for gear heads
that super snake GT-500 makes 635RWHP! on the dyno
Will never, ever happen again. Check the price tags on the highest performance musclecars. Ford, Chrysler and Chevrolet are stilll able to get away with adding the additional surcharges well above the MSRP to these dream cars. Those who can afford to flip that kind of coin are not concerned about paying $4.00 or even $5.00 at the pump. The demand for the cars is e-n-o-r-m-o-u-s.
The '08 Shelby came pre-owned. At the time Ford was taking bids nearly into the 6 digit range for the 'verts. We werent going there. That HAS calmed down finally, but for models like the "Super Snake" and the new '10-'11 Supercharged Vettes thse are still animals for deep pockets
I do agree with most of your post, however 50-60k into an older muscle car is alot too high of an estimate, unless you just throw money away. I have a 408" Pontiac that made 653hp on pump gas at 6500 rpm, no nos, no blower, all engine. It's in a 64 Tempest that we just went to Sikeston, Mo. with and in the 1/8 it ran a 6.01 at 119 mph. We drove it the 165 miles back home. That is with a TH400 and 3.89 rear gear in the 9", M&H's new "MINI TUB" tires, (28x what looks like 12" of thread, but it fits well on the 10" wide rims). I originally built this 408 in 2004, with kre d-ports with heavy port work, but i replaced those porious water leakers with the Roland Racing CV-1 heads (www.rolandracing.com) and this winter put new rings in it along with a new distributor (went to a Mallory from the old msd). My dyno is a 2000hp Land and Sea double absorbtion unit. There has been 2 engines on it that showed 37-40 less hp then on other dyno's. I'd much rather have it rate an engine conseveratively than the magazine over hyped type ratings. Including the 4500 for the body, 9500 in the engine, 600 in the trans, 1200 in the convertor, and the 1200 in the rearend, thats alot less than 50-60k. When it gets repainted next month, and interior done I will have a total of under 20k in it. I am suspecting from Saturday nights passes at Sikeston, this will be a nice easy to drive high 9 second car.
I was leaning closer to the actual cost of doing the mods for the classic Chrysler (MoPars) and assuming starting with something in great condition. The MoPar A-B and E body cars, of the ones that left the factory as Musclecars have maintained the highest level of value on the era's collectible status. The 340 A body mopars (67-71) are typically priced below some big-block B body Mopars and all the E body (Cuda-Challengers 70-71) so I'll make a joke as to I own the "budget" version of MoPar Muscle. Just for example, you paid 4500 for the Tempest body- and if restoring a Plymouth Superbird or '71 Cuda you would go into cardio to find a 'Birds nosecone complete and delapidated (but restorable) or an NOS Cuda grille for that.
The platform starts really high, we're talking rotisserie restoration , nut and bolt to completion. Had this car (My '70 Plymouth for example) been "typical" after 41 years, just to roll the uni-body into and out of a qualified bodyshop for quarters, a few floor panels, trunk floor repair, some repair below the rear glass and possibly the cowl...then assuming the fenders, hood and trunk lid are do-able the body needs to go strait to remove 41 years of dings and minor body repair the car doesnt leave the shop until you invested 12-15K. If the car was a wreck to start with, a certified #s match car not complete will fetch 10K. So now your out of 35K before you get into drivetrain, suspension, interior, wiring harness's, chrome trim, grille assembly, $2500 into making the dashboard perfect again etc....
So now were complete, the Mopar resto (not even modified yet) just finished at 50-60K and you can MORE than DOUBLE that for a V-code Challenger convertible or similar '71 HemiCuda. OK, lets be honest, you'll have 200K into the last 2 cars
Lets draw back and simplify this to my original estimate $$$$....use my Duster for ex. Complete car, bad economy and Im forced to sell. I get only 32K as it is-and being impatient...(load .44 mag super redhawk, blow brains out) Next owner wants to make "road machine" capable of handling and performing with todays modern muscle. (remember Old vs New)
Cool, car can go high 11's with slicks. But this is a 3 spd auto and mostly OEM susp. Hold onto your can! Front end conversion to rack and pinion/over coil susp. $4500.00. Convert to 6 spd manual trans by Keisler.. $5,000.00 total, more for the nifty 6 spd automatic. Brembo rotors and brakes (powder coated of course, we're doing this right) on all 4 $3500.00 on up. OK, now we need lightweight wheels, maybee 17" and sticky low profile skins...yikes we're at $250.00 per tire and closer to $500.00 per wheel! <Don't forget, we're trying to match only a new generation Charger R/T in handling, forget the Corvettes> K, thats all done and we've still got the factory appearance under the hood which doesnt match the rest of the car anymore. Oh boy, aluminum rad and elec fan kit add $1,000.00, really slick cool air induction kit add another $650.00 for dual-polished, Engine dress up kit incl. valve covers, chrome do dads everywhere add another $1,000.00 not incl labor....That battery looks aweful up here now, relocate to trunk (show quality job) and hide the wiring will add up to a few more hundred bucks. Upgrade interior gauges to modern specs: to do this right in a Mopar rallye cluster by finding high end gauges that fit into stock locations add another $1500.00, and dont forget the sleek new steering column with tilt wheel, and a really cool steering wheel add in another $1350.00 or more. Bucket seat upgrade and harness??? Add more..
So not including engine build, we just invested $24,000.00 incl. tax, and assuming the owner did ALL the labor themselves! Add labor?? Probably $10K would be conservative estimate. GM engine build vs. Chrysler, multiply X2. (believe me, I wish were much different)
I am building a 451 from a 400 block right now for an ex girlfriends 68 Cuda. But I seriously am considering selling it and building a new syle 5.7 hemi instead. I know I can make a pump gas without power adder 650+hp with the new hemi. In fact the parts combo I came up with last year is nearly the same as what BES won the engine masters contest with last year, only my cam same specs except on a 111 LSA. Of course his dual distributor is worth coping!
If ya can swing it, I wouldnt hesitate. You will need to contact Schumachers for engine mounts and adapters to squeeze that new Hemi into an A body however.
Tom is correct. To make an older car perform anywhere near a new one(all around including comfort and even fuel mileage)you are gonna dump a boatload of $$ into it.. I know guys with grand touring type built up musclecars and $100k is the norm when they are done right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom62
I
The platform starts really high, we're talking rotisserie restoration , nut and bolt to completion. Had this car (My '70 Plymouth for example) been "typical" after 41 years, just to roll the uni-body into and out of a qualified bodyshop for quarters, a few floor panels, trunk floor repair, some repair below the rear glass and possibly the cowl...then assuming the fenders, hood and trunk lid are do-able the body needs to go strait to remove 41 years of dings and minor body repair the car doesnt leave the shop until you invested 12-15K. If the car was a wreck to start with, a certified #s match car not complete will fetch 10K. So now your out of 35K before you get into drivetrain, suspension, interior, wiring harness's, chrome trim, grille assembly, $2500 into making the dashboard perfect again etc....
So now were complete, the Mopar resto (not even modified yet) just finished at 50-60K and you can MORE than DOUBLE that for a V-code Challenger convertible or similar '71 HemiCuda. OK, lets be honest, you'll have 200K into the last 2 cars
Lets draw back and simplify this to my original estimate $$$$....use my Duster for ex. Complete car, bad economy and Im forced to sell. I get only 32K as it is-and being impatient...(load .44 mag super redhawk, blow brains out) Next owner wants to make "road machine" capable of handling and performing with todays modern muscle. (remember Old vs New)
Cool, car can go high 11's with slicks. But this is a 3 spd auto and mostly OEM susp. Hold onto your can! Front end conversion to rack and pinion/over coil susp. $4500.00. Convert to 6 spd manual trans by Keisler.. $5,000.00 total, more for the nifty 6 spd automatic. Brembo rotors and brakes (powder coated of course, we're doing this right) on all 4 $3500.00 on up. OK, now we need lightweight wheels, maybee 17" and sticky low profile skins...yikes we're at $250.00 per tire and closer to $500.00 per wheel! <Don't forget, we're trying to match only a new generation Charger R/T in handling, forget the Corvettes> K, thats all done and we've still got the factory appearance under the hood which doesnt match the rest of the car anymore. Oh boy, aluminum rad and elec fan kit add $1,000.00, really slick cool air induction kit add another $650.00 for dual-polished, Engine dress up kit incl. valve covers, chrome do dads everywhere add another $1,000.00 not incl labor....That battery looks aweful up here now, relocate to trunk (show quality job) and hide the wiring will add up to a few more hundred bucks. Upgrade interior gauges to modern specs: to do this right in a Mopar rallye cluster by finding high end gauges that fit into stock locations add another $1500.00, and dont forget the sleek new steering column with tilt wheel, and a really cool steering wheel add in another $1350.00 or more. Bucket seat upgrade and harness??? Add more..
So not including engine build, we just invested $24,000.00 incl. tax, and assuming the owner did ALL the labor themselves! Add labor?? Probably $10K would be conservative estimate. GM engine build vs. Chrysler, multiply X2. (believe me, I wish were much different)
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Sure is all fun...
but that my my driver error. I'm still a bit quicker that even the SRT8 Challenger. I can tell you even with the 800 Edelbrock and TTI headers installed on the Duster- after the dyno tune the car will be easy low 12's and I wouldnt even think of coaxing the supercharged Vette or a Shelby GT500KR 
Have yet to meet our match on the street except for 2 very fast new Corvettes..One was a modified Z06, the other the supercharged ZR1. To their credit, they kept up pretty damn good! Fender to fender. The Shelby has manhandled and embarrased some of the most expensive and fastest Exotic European cars made. The humiliation on the face of a dude who thinks he's all that and a 6-pack to watch a FORD haze the tires at 100+ mph and leave his $490,000 car looking for a hiding space is priceless. Certainly one of the pleasure in life. My vote for American Muscle vs. the Exotics... I'll take the new 'Vettes and what Carroll Shelby is doing with Ford anyday.
