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Old 03-24-2011, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 13,360,338 times
Reputation: 4846

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Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
That's the sort of hypocrisy I was talking about. You should buy a vehicle based on its merits, rather than what your buddies think about the badge on the hood.
Ahh, but the point is, those vehicles DO sell on their merits, day in and day out.

Where do you THINK you LEARN the merits of a vehicle? Pictures and a spec sheet? Or first hand experience with a LARGE number of owners sampled? Owners that have LIVED with the merits?
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:21 PM
 
22,769 posts, read 28,467,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
Ahh, but the point is, those vehicles DO sell on their merits, day in and day out.
i'm not terribly concerned with whether or not they are selling. my belief is that car and truck sales have more to do with emotion than logic.

truck buyers have had decades to build emotional attachments to Ford, Chevy, and Dodge. That emotional attachment certainly helps them sell more vehicles, but it does not mean the trucks are higher quality.

In fact, I would argue that this emotional attachment is exactly what the topic of this thread is about. My experience with fullsize domestic truck drivers (My family has sold Fords for 40 years, and most of my friends drove Chevy 1500s growing up), is that it is almost like having a favorite football team. You're supposed to hate the other team, and that's exactly what happened -- and not just with the Tundra, but also the Titan and the Ridgeline.


Quote:
Where do you THINK you LEARN the merits of a vehicle?
You learn the merits of a vehicle by driving it.

You learn the merits of an entire brand of vehicles, or an entire line of vehicles across multiple years, by analyzing data, not by talking to your buddies.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:22 PM
 
14,781 posts, read 39,724,456 times
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In terms of the Tundra, the reliability rating for the truck by CR was based on the badge on the hood (that's what I meant by "past performance" it was the past performance of the brand in general), not the vehicle itself and CR stated as much when they rescinded their recommendation. 2007 was an all new truck competing in a class that Toyota had never been in before. It was only after the problems surfaced that CR adjusted their rating and Toyota apologized.

When I talked about it and the Silverado tieing for top honors, it was based on the actual review done in 2007, FWIW even then, both were beat by the Avalanche. Now, the Silverado and F150 from 2007 are rated above the Tundra of that year in reliability and the Tundra lost its recommended rating. Chalk it up to a case of buying a brand, not a vehicle on CR's part.

As for the midsize segment, while you are absolutely correct that the Tacoma is the winner there and I would personally recommend it to anyone shopping in that market, total midsize truck sales number barely 200k units a year (about 140k of which are Tacoma). That represents about a third of what F150 sales alone are. So, plain and simple midsize isn't the "truck market" and is a very small niche. Also, the American brands long gave up in that segment as they found that midsize unit sales were cannibalized by the entry level half ton offerings they had. Basically, most Ford and Chevy buyers opt for a base model F150 or Silverado for a couple grand more than a Ranger or Colorado. There is a much larger spread between the Tacoma and Tundra.

On the earlier Tundra, it wasn't exactly a full size truck. Additionally model years 2000-2004 have significant engine problems over the long haul. The best examples of that generation Tundra are the 2005 and 2006's. Conversely based on historical data, the biggest trouble years for the Silverado were 2000, 2001 and 2003. The remaining years, they were more reliable than the Tundra and were equal in 2005 and 2006. On the F150 side, 2000-2005 had worse reliability than the Silverado and Tundra. So, basically, outside of 2005 and 2006 the Tundra wasn't any better than the Silverado or F150 and even in those years, it was equal to the Silverado.

There are other factors at work there as well. The Tundra of those years was a much more streamlined vehicle with few options and configuration choices. The Silverado and F150 offered multiple options from engines, transmissions and rears to various cab configurations. Some of the models had issues, others didn't.

Again, when it comes to full sized trucks, which far and away represent the truck market, the Toyota offering is no better than the Chevy and Ford offerings on an aggragate basis. Within specific model years, there are some differences, but the Toyota has not been universally good and the Ford and Chevy universally bad.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Pikesville, MD
5,229 posts, read 13,360,338 times
Reputation: 4846
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
i'm not terribly concerned with whether or not they are selling. my belief is that car and truck sales have more to do with emotion than logic.
Not working vehicles in fleets. if they don't do the job, they get swapped out.

Quote:
truck buyers have had decades to build emotional attachments to Ford, Chevy, and Dodge. That emotional attachment certainly helps them sell more vehicles, but it does not mean the trucks are higher quality.
Trucks are about work, and quality in them means how much work can they do, for how long, between rebuilds. They aren't about panel gaps or dash stroking (though to many car buyers and people without a clue are trying to MAKE them that way).

Quote:
You learn the merits of a vehicle by driving it.
Unless it's from driving it day in and day out for a long time, you're not going to learn the "merits" of a working vehicle in a damn test drive.

Quote:
You learn the merits of an entire brand of vehicles, or an entire line of vehicles across multiple years, by analyzing data.
Spoken by someone who hasn't driven or owned very many vehicles, or a very diverse set of vehicles.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:31 PM
 
22,769 posts, read 28,467,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
In terms of the Tundra, the reliability rating for the truck by CR was based on the badge on the hood (that's what I meant by "past performance" it was the past performance of the brand in general), not the vehicle itself and CR stated as much when they rescinded their recommendation. 2007 was an all new truck competing in a class that Toyota had never been in before. It was only after the problems surfaced that CR adjusted their rating and Toyota apologized.

When I talked about it and the Silverado tieing for top honors, it was based on the actual review done in 2007, FWIW even then, both were beat by the Avalanche. Now, the Silverado and F150 from 2007 are rated above the Tundra of that year in reliability and the Tundra lost its recommended rating. Chalk it up to a case of buying a brand, not a vehicle on CR's part.
i agree, i did some searching a second ago, and saw the article where they discuss this.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,787 posts, read 15,309,199 times
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I've owned mostly Japanese cars with just a couple of American cars, but I've driven practically everything, or at least a good sampling from all major manufacturers except for the exotics. Most times I would say I prefer a Japanese brand over an American make because I have been into the whole import tuner scene for a few years now, but I like and enjoy other genres and styles too. So for me, it doesn't matter what brand it is, but what I might be able to turn it into with some creative effort. If a car has a particularly nice body, or drivetrain or potential, then it will usually pique my interest no matter who makes it. I do like technology and turbo chargers.

I do think some old "stereotypes" still hold true, although all the brands are leveling the playing field with good competition. I think the imports tend to make better small cars and small engines because their market demanded it and that's where most of their engineering expertise was focused. I think the Americans make the best full size trucks and SUVs. Germans make the best luxury cars and probably everybody has gotten a pretty good handle of plain vanilla middle of the road midsized cars and crossovers by now because that is the meat of the market, but those don't really excite me.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:35 PM
 
22,769 posts, read 28,467,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc63 View Post
Not working vehicles in fleets. if they don't do the job, they get swapped out.
Fleet vehicles are also driven by emotion, because the decisions are still being made by people. My organization, for example, will only buy domestic.

Quote:
Trucks are about work, and quality in them means how much work can they do, for how long, between rebuilds. They aren't about panel gaps or dash stroking (though to many car buyers and people without a clue are trying to MAKE them that way).
Yep. I agree. So..?

Quote:
Unless it's from driving it day in and day out for a long time, you're not going to learn the "merits" of a working vehicle in a damn test drive.
Yep. I agree. So..?

Quote:
Spoken by someone who hasn't driven or owned very many vehicles, or a very diverse set of vehicles.
Oh? What all cars and trucks have I driven, and owned?
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,719 posts, read 27,992,707 times
Reputation: 9250
Quote:
Originally Posted by iTsLiKeAnEgG View Post
I don't have any brand loyalty. I purchase sports cars and luxury cars but that's the only requirement. It doesn't matter if a domestic, asian, or european make that meets those needs.
Me too. Brand loyalty is kind of silly. The GM cars of today are much better than the GM cars of ten years ago. If you stayed loyal to GM because you liked your Gen1 Firebird then you have suffered plenty through decades of mediocrity.

The best thing to do is buy the best vehicle that meets your needs. Car makers should compete based on excellence, not loyalty. That way when they screw up they are motivated to fix it.

I'll be loyal to a brand if their CEO comes to my front door, pays off my mortgage in cash, and sets up a fund to pay for all of my kids college. Otherwise these giant companies haven't done a single thing for me of personal value.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:57 PM
 
861 posts, read 2,607,556 times
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Being a mechanic I too have access to literally every brand out there from Kia to Lamborghini and I have to say that for my money Toyota / Lexus / Scion is what I will be putting in my garage for a very long time to come.

For me price and the badge on the hood have nothing to do with my buying decision. I simply buy the best car I can afford that will cause me the least headaches during ownership. If GM, Ford or Dodge ever figure out how to built a decent car I would buy one in a heartbeat. I personally would love a new camaro or challanger but I need to be able to rely on my car daily and they haven't figured out how to build that kind of quality yet.

Knowing what I do from working on cars for the last 15 yrs I would list my preferences in the following order.

Toyota (Lexus, Scion), Subaru, Honda, Acura, Infiniti, Nissan, hyundia, Kia, Ford, Dodge, Jeep, GM brands, Mercedes, BMW, VW, Other German brands, and finally all things from Italy.
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:23 PM
 
14,781 posts, read 39,724,456 times
Reputation: 14532
Quote:
Originally Posted by johna01374 View Post
Being a mechanic I too have access to literally every brand out there from Kia to Lamborghini and I have to say that for my money Toyota / Lexus / Scion is what I will be putting in my garage for a very long time to come.

For me price and the badge on the hood have nothing to do with my buying decision. I simply buy the best car I can afford that will cause me the least headaches during ownership. If GM, Ford or Dodge ever figure out how to built a decent car I would buy one in a heartbeat. I personally would love a new camaro or challanger but I need to be able to rely on my car daily and they haven't figured out how to build that kind of quality yet.

Knowing what I do from working on cars for the last 15 yrs I would list my preferences in the following order.

Toyota (Lexus, Scion), Subaru, Honda, Acura, Infiniti, Nissan, hyundia, Kia, Ford, Dodge, Jeep, GM brands, Mercedes, BMW, VW, Other German brands, and finally all things from Italy.
Not knocking your personal preference, it is what its, however most mechanics I know tend to stick to the mantra of they're "all crap" and prefer things that are easy to work on.

FWIW, I sit in a building with over 600 ASE certified technicians including the largest collection of World Class Techs in the world. If I look around the parking lot I see about 70% domestic and 30% foreign makes.

Last edited by NJGOAT; 03-24-2011 at 01:35 PM..
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