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The diesels are more expensive in Europe too. 318i starts off at 22,695. From there you've a bunch of diesel options ranging from 2,000 to 13,000 more than the 318. That's just of the diesel premium (eg, 335d M versus 318i M is 13,000 more... base 318i to 335d M would be 16,000). Here they're better equipped. Not so in Europe where diesels are still more expensive than their gas counterparts.
Diesel is less expensive than gas in Europe. Rather than the price off-setting the fuel economy difference it adds to it. Fuel overall is 2-3x as much as it is here making chasing fuel economy more important. Pollution regulations aren't as stringent, meaning you don't have to load diesels with thousands of dollars of emissions controls to sell them.
You cant compare a 318i to a 335d, you compare a 318i to a 318d, and BMW has openly stated that they have a goal of offering their gas and diesel cars at equal prices.
And as I said, in Norway the 320d is 2% cheaper than the 320i.
Pluses:
Diesels can last forever. 200,000 miles is nothing for a good diesel engine.
They often get better mileage.
They often have more power (not always).
They can run on almost anything. (Kerosene, vegetable oil, left over fryer oils, you name it).
Negatives:
They are super expensive to buy.
They are super expensive to repair unless you can DIY, but parts are expensive.
They have difficulty starting when cold.
Some of them are very poorly made and have gasoline car parts that cannot handle diesel compression.
They make black smoke which people associate with pollution (actually the exhaust from a car is more toxic).
They tend to be a bit noisy.
Your positives are spot-on, but some of your negatives are things that were true in the '70s and '80s but not really (if at all) any more. Diesels still do cost quite a bit more than gasoline engines to purchase and repair.
Cold-starting a diesel today is no worse than cost-starting most gasoline engines, especially carbureted gasoline engines (like in your snowblower.)
Diesel engines sold today are very reliable units that are built very sturdily and last longer than gasoline engines. You are thinking of one engine, the very ill-fated GM 350 CID V8 diesel of the late '70s. It used the gasoline 350 small-block's block, which wasn't quite up to the task. That one engine probably did more to turn people off to diesel cars than any other, wheezy anemic diesel VW Rabbits included.
A properly-tuned and properly-maintained diesel made in the past 25 years or so makes very little smoke. You might see a little puff if somebody stomps on the throttle abruptly or immediately after start-up on a cold day, but that's about it. Road diesels made since 2007 make no smoke at all due to the particulate filter. Smoke comes from an overly rich fuel mixture, which remotely modern injection systems with any sort of MAF sensing and will usually keep down to a bare minimum. The only reason they'd make a bunch of smoke is that they are running way out of tune (far too rich) or have some problem with the air intake system, such as a malfunctioning turbo or a plugged air filter. The guys with hot-rodded diesel pickups that shoot clouds of smoke, usually out of an aftermarket vertical exhaust stack, are running huge aftermarket turbos that take forever to spool up coupled with a messed-with ECU fuel injector duty cycle mapping that has the injectors dump a lot more fuel into the cylinders at all RPM levels. They are similar to the guys with the old carbureted muscle cars that tweak with their fuel metering valves to dump so much gasoline into the engine that enough unburned gasoline is in the exhaust system to start on fire and shoot flames out the tailpipe. I think both groups actually INTEND to do those things.
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Diesel fuel is more expensive (for no good reason at all). When I was looking at a diesel pick up, the additional mileage (about 20% better) slightly overcompensated for the price difference for fuel (about 14%). However that difference varies considerably from time to time.
Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline because the global demand for diesel is growing much faster than the demand for gasoline. You can only refine so large of a percentage of any one distillate out of a barrel of oil, so you get a lot of gasoline as a by-product from diesel distillation. Europe uses a higher proportion of diesel to gasoline for personal transport due to taxes being significantly lower for diesel than gasoline. Construction and industrial equipment nearly all use diesel, and the construction boom in Asia has markedly affected diesel demand over the past decade. Also, diesel is made slightly more expensive relative to gasoline in the U.S. due to taxes. Federal fuel taxes are 18.4 cents/gal for gasoline and 24.4 cents/gal for diesel. Many states tax the two fuels similarly. My guess is that diesel taxes are higher because a lot of diesel is bought by businesses and most gasoline is bought by individuals. It is politically and financially much easier to tax businesses than individuals.
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Originally Posted by snofarmer
It has more to do with taxation and the state area you live in.
Diesel gets taxed at a higher rate that gas why? Our #'s are less than gas users our cry's are not heard over the gas users screams.
If folks got on board and let our politicians that we are tired of getting the short end.
We have been sold a pig-in-a-poke with gasoline.
In MT. diesel has a tax on it, that is used for cleaning Mountain roads.
The difference in taxation between diesel fuel and gasoline is six cents more per gallon in federal taxes ($0.184/gal vs. $0.244/gal) and an average of 1.6 cents LESS per gallon in state taxes. So as a nationwide average, combined state and federal taxes are 47.0 cents/gallon for gasoline and 51.4 cents/gallon for diesel fuel. A difference of 4.4 cents per gallon in taxes doesn't explain why I can go to the gas station at end of the block get a gallon of 89-octane gasoline for $3.50 but a gallon of #2 diesel costs $3.89. There are still 35 more cents to account for.
Not much variety. I like VW, MB and BMW diesels, but they are not available in all of their model line-up. Other automakers also have this problem but not all (like GM, Ford).
I frequently see Diesel pick ups and less frequently but still occasionally cars puffing out or belching out clouds of black smoke. While I know that it is cleaner than car exhaust, it ticks people off. Drama queens make themselves sick when they see it and think it is from the "fumes".
Neighbors with diesel pick up trucks still have trouble starting them when it is really cold. One guy borrows my torpedo heater puts a tarp around the front of his truck and blasts heat into it for half an hour to warm it up. His truck is not new, but not that old, no more than 10 years. I have never had a car with a good battery fail to start of crank excessively because it is cold.
I am told that ford still couples poor transmissions with their diesel engines.
Most of the negative I could live with or risk, however the killer is the cost. I would consider buying a diesel car or truck and maybe putting in a grease fuel system, but they are just too expensive.
Neighbors with diesel pick up trucks still have trouble starting them when it is really cold. One guy borrows my torpedo heater puts a tarp around the front of his truck and blasts heat into it for half an hour to warm it up. His truck is not new, but not that old, no more than 10 years. I have never had a car with a good battery fail to start of crank excessively because it is cold.
Sounds like your neighbor needs a block heater, or if he has one, you live somewhere very very cold.
I'm not sure where you are getting that DPF regen can now happen at much lower temps.
It can regen at idle temps engine temps, it can use fuel injected on the exhaust stroke to raise the exhaust temps
Passive regen occurs at normal operating temperatures under loaded driving conditions, however, active regen still requires temps in the 600 - 650 degree Celsius range. The only way to lower that is to add a DPF fluid additive to the gas tank that has catalyst in it to bind with the soot.
The DEF not DPF, The urea, def fluid is not to control soot it is to control NOX, def is not flammable, fuel is added on the exhaust stroke to aid the dpf in burning off the soot the filter has collected truing it into a ash.
Here is some a good site for how a modern diesels emission system works. This is the one currently used on all VW/Audi's in North America.
Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) - The Facts About the Fluid.
Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF), one of the key elements involved in the SCR process, is a solution of purified water and 32.5% automotive-grade urea. When combined with the heat of the exhaust stream and the SCR catalyst, DEF helps convert NOx into harmless nitrogen and water vapor. DEF is non-toxic and non-flammable and it will not harm people, animals, equipment or the environment when handled properly.
http://cumminsengines.com/every/misc/Technology/DEF_page.page
http://http://cumminsengines.com/every/misc/Technology/DEF_page.page (http://http//cumminsengines.com/every/misc/Technology/DEF_page.page - broken link)
The site also gets into the issues relating to running bio-diesel on a modern diesel engine. It's not that the engine can't, it's just that bio doesn't get along well with the emissions system and the regen cycles for the DPF.
You are correct, the engine can run on various fuels,
it's the emissions that limit there use at this time.
DPF clogging is also most certainly still an issue with vehicles. IF (that's a big if, lol) you are doing primarily city driving, over short distances with high idle time, you can clog the DPF very rapidly. Spend some time "googling" and you will hear plenty of stories of people with 2010+ cars having issues with clogged DPF's. Whether or not you will have an issue all comes down to driving style and fuel quality. This isn't something most will have to deal with, but it is a possible issue someone with a gas engine doesn't need to worry about. Clogged DPF's are also not automatically covered under warranty as they can be attributed to driver issues.
They are certainly are a warranty issue unless the mgf tells you you can't use the vehicle in a certain way.
They have to service it, some will clean it with a pressure washer some will replace it.
They can't tell you sorry we will not warranty it because you drive like a old lady and never go over 30mph.
That's why they can go into renen parked. now,
As for gas-hybrids, on the economy front, they tend to actually hit their EPA numbers, especially on the city cycle. Gas-hybrids are weakest on the highway, but still tend to do better than regular cars. With that said, the ultimate hybrid would actually be a diesel-hybrid, but no one has done that yet.
For some good reasons ans some that you have mentioned, a small diesel will out perform most Hy-breds.
It's better to run a diesel than to turn it off and on.
.
Ps I need to learn how to break up a post to respond to various points like some other do..
I have never owned a diesel, but I would. They last longer and get better gas mileage. My Ford Escort is a gasser, but if it were a diesel it would get up to 68 miles per gallon. I do not even know any hybrids rated that high.
Ps I need to learn how to break up a post to respond to various points like some other do..
The easiest way is to delete the quote tags and then just highlight the text you want and hit the quote tag button at the top of the message box, it looks like a little speech bubble and is to the right of the insert picture icon.
On to the topic at hand...
Regens. Regens can occur at idle or while driving. In either case the temperature needed to complete a regen is the same inside the DPF. The issue is that while at idle regens are not as effective as they are when the vehicle is being driven under load. Constant regens at idle can lead to clogged DPF's since the burn isn't as complete. So, it's not that they can't be done under any operating condition, it's just that idle regens are not as effective as regens done under load. This applies to cars, pickups and 18-wheelers. The article I posted earlier actually gives the recommended driving style from VW/Audi for completing an effective regen.
On the fluid issue, I was not referring to DEF. There are fluids of which Fleetguards Platinum DFX and Platinum DFX-DPF are the most common that are added to the fuel tank to assist in completing a better regen. These fluids contain additional platinum and cerrium catalysts that reduce the soot loads and allow the catalyst to function at lower temperatures, making a regen able to happen effeciently at 300C instead of say 650C. They were originally developed for use in mining equipment where exhaust treatment devices were retrofit on the equipment to improve air quality in the mines. The problem is that the DPF's became clogged rapidly since the vehicles couldn't regen properly since they were essentially always at idle.
Here is a link announcing the deal with Fleetguard:
The Platinum Plus FBC provides significant emission reductions from diesel engines and is formulated to improve the performance of after-treatment devices such as diesel-oxidation catalysts, partial filters or diesel-particulate traps. Offered in both the Platinum Plus DFX and higher strength Platinum Plus DFX-DPF formulations, Fleetguard will carry both products through its nationwide sales and distributor partners. According to James Valentine, president of Clean Diesel, "These products have been demonstrated to improve the performance of after-treatment devices by reducing soot loading to the devices, lowering soot-oxidation temperature and keeping devices catalytically active."
Commenting on the agreement, David Brisk of Fleetguard said: "Our target markets will initially be those fleets using after-treatment devices where the benefits of a fuel-borne catalyst are well established. These include fleets using particulate filters or diesel-oxidation catalysts which can become fouled with soot under low temperatures or stop-and-go driving cycles. The Platinum Plus FBC reduces engine-out soot loadings and allows soot to oxidize at lower temperatures, thus reducing or eliminating plugging of exhaust treatment devices."
As for the rest, I don't think we have much argument, other than the piece about warranties and regen. VW issued a warning to people who wanted to buy DPF equipped TDI's in certain locations. One of them was the Isle of Man that is about 5 miles across. They basically stated that they could not warranty the DPF in those locations do to the driving conditions and the high probability that the DPF's would clog. It was basically a case where you can buy a DPF unit, but you are assuming the risk if it gets clogged, even when under warranty. The article I posted mentions this. So, again, it is not a non-issue anymore, just a low probability one that is entirely tied to a persons driving habits.
Then I would stay away from a company like Volkswagen.
Whats stopping them from denying any warranty claim?
If you didn't drive it it wouldn't have broke?
They are required to warranty emissions by the feds are they not?
Then I would stay away from a company like Volkswagen.
Whats stopping them from denying any warranty claim?
If you didn't drive it it wouldn't have broke?
They are required to warranty emissions by the feds are they not?
They are, but if you read the federal emissions warranty, it is only covered for "manufacturing shortcomings". Basically, it would have to be proven that there was a defect in the catalyst that led to its failure. Clogging with excessive soot from a persons driving isn't really a defect in manufacturing. Hence the warnings in the manual and advice on how to do a proper regen. If the catalyst failed and wasn't clogged with soot, you would have a valid claim.
This isn't just a VW issue, they just happen to be the only ones with a large number of affordable diesel models available. The Mercedes and BMW diesels also carry similar warnings. It hasn't impacted the truck market at all because the diesel trucks that are on the market are in a GVW class that isn't covered by the fed emissions warranty anyway, but they do have similar recommendations for doing proper regens.
Also, the diesel car manufacturers recommend checking the DPF's at 100k-120k miles for soot loading. If it is OK at that time, they require checks every 10k miles after that, with the only option to replace the DPF as the ones on cars here are unservicable. Most are pegged to last around 130k-150k miles on average. The average cost of replacing a DPF is in the $2,500-$3,500 range on a car. The DPF costs almost as much as a new engine.
So, if you are someone who does a ton of city driving and has high idle time and never does a "proper" regen and you don't run the additive fluid in your tank (which is quite expensive) and your DPF gets clogged you are looking at a ~$3k repair bill.
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I do not even know any hybrids rated that high.
