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I still see it every ice trial season, in real cold-weather driving conditions (as in, not in a heated ice rink where the ambient temperature is 60-something degrees and the ice is jell-o soft): studs outperform snow tires by a huge margin, which is why they're put in their own class. When I start seeing the snow-tire class entrants perform anywhere near as well as the studded class, then I'll believe snow tires might, some day, outperform studs on ice.
Those studs are different than street legal road studs, arent they? The studs I've seen used in ice races are a lot longer and sharper than what gets put on a street tire.
Those studs are different than street legal road studs, arent they? The studs I've seen used in ice races are a lot longer and sharper than what gets put on a street tire.
Some use racing studs. But those are damned expensive and this is a poor-man's hobby, so most who run in the studded class just use conventional studs. And they still stomp on the studless class.
I still see it every ice trial season, in real cold-weather driving conditions (as in, not in a heated ice rink where the ambient temperature is 60-something degrees and the ice is jell-o soft): studs outperform snow tires by a huge margin, which is why they're put in their own class. When I start seeing the snow-tire class entrants perform anywhere near as well as the studded class, then I'll believe snow tires might, some day, outperform studs on ice.
I've seen the studs used in ice racing, they don't have any relevance to street tires or are even legal for road use. I guess you say some use regular studs, okay. When it comes down to it, 99% of the people reading this thread, maybe more, are not going to be driving at higher speeds on frozen lakes racing wheel to wheel. Most people are going to be dealing with slush, snow pack, fresh snow, sleet and so on.
The tire compound technology has come a long way, even in the past 2-3 years and in almost all scenarios, a new studless winter tire is going to outperform an old studded tire and work the best for your average consumer that is going to buy a winter tire.
Also this whole studded debate is pretty pointless because:
1. Many states have outlawed studs
2. Most of the main winter tire manufacturers don't even make studded tires anymore.
Studs get longer as the tire wears, not shorter in my experience. they are harder than the road and a lot harder than the tire. I could show you worn down snows with studs protruding like new. Maybe others have found some soft studs but I don't see it.
They do tear up the road. I have studded tires on the heaviest Mercedes of recent vintage, a 1988 300SEL and if the weather gets warm and windows are down I am pretty self conscious driving down the street with those studs eating the asphalt. You can hear the grinding a half block away.
No. The studs wear sooner because they are in full contact with the pavement if there is no ice or packed snow on the road. Also, the smaller (shorter) the tire is, the sooner the studs wear-out because of the faster spin when driving.
People who can't afford buying new tires to replace the studded tires by the end of April often remove the studs with a set of needle nose Vise-grips, and leave the snow tires minus the studs, which is legal. But snow tires are designed with a soft rubber compound, so driving with such during the summer wears them out in a short period of time.
We had the stud/studless debate on this forum before and I was dismissed as a heretic for saying the new compounds of snow tires could outperform studs, despite my experience testing winter tires as a professional driver.
A lot of the newer snow tires have siping that when the tread rolls over ground, the siping spreads out as a bunch of tiny fingers to grab the ice and provide traction. Also the rubber compound is like a sponge that absorbs water and wicks it away. On a warmer day you can squeeze the tread block on a Blizzak or similar tire with your fingers and little droplets of water will come out.
The studs don't really allow the tread compound to work as well and as the engineers told me, weakens the tread block as well.
Manufacturers moved in the direction of developing the technology for studless winter tires as the market has grown less due to states and some countries either banning studded tires or limiting their use.
Some sutdless tires work quite well on ice and snow, but driving in extremely cold weather such as what we encounter in Alaska changes the traction dynamics. For example, if driving when the temperature is -40 or so, rubber tends to harden. Nokian and other tire manufacturers make snow tires with special rubber compounds that are quite soft or flexible, but this softness is drastically reduced in extreme cold weather.
The two non-studded tires mentioned above are widely used in the interior of Alaska, and only for winter driving. But what helps the most maintaining the traction the tires produce is AWD and the vehicle stability control. On ice alone the studs are superior to rubber, but that's it.
Also, when trying to stop a skid on ice and depending on the distance of the skid, most times it makes no difference. For example, there aren't that many suds near each other on the tire, so on a long skid the rubber in front of the stud fills with a layer of ice that has been scraped off the road by the stud. This ice acts as a sled, and the car plows forward. But if the skid is short, studs do a great job stopping the car.
Now, driving on a frozen lake for example, studs or chains do a better job than rubber alone. But again, vehicles with stability controls plus good sets of snow tires or just aggressive all-season tires are as common as studded tires in the interior of Alaska.
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That said, I would think that in most places in the lower-48 it does not get extremely cold like it does up here. I would imagine that a set of the two tires mentioned above (non-studded) should be perfect there, because they do provide excellent traction, specially if used a newer vehicle with stability control.
I've seen the studs used in ice racing, they don't have any relevance to street tires or are even legal for road use. I guess you say some use regular studs, okay. When it comes down to it, 99% of the people reading this thread, maybe more, are not going to be driving at higher speeds on frozen lakes racing wheel to wheel. Most people are going to be dealing with slush, snow pack, fresh snow, sleet and so on.
Any kind of studs are next to useless in those conditions as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, including by me. And yet you wanted to belabor the specific "studs versus snow tires on ice" issue anyway. So as long as you want to do that, you don't get to retreat into the "but it's not even relevant" when you're called out on the "snow tires outperform studs even on ice" trope. If it's not relevant, don't even bother beating that drum.
No. The studs wear sooner because they are in full contact with the pavement if there is no ice or packed snow on the road. Also, the smaller (shorter) the tire is, the sooner the studs wear-out because of the faster spin when driving.
People who can't afford buying new tires to replace the studded tires by the end of April often remove the studs with a set of needle nose Vise-grips, and leave the snow tires minus the studs, which is legal. But snow tires are designed with a soft rubber compound, so driving with such during the summer wears them out in a short period of time.
I am guessing that you don't have two sets of well used studded tires in your garage like I do, right? The tires wear faster than the studs. Even on pavement.
Last edited by Wilson513; 10-02-2011 at 02:52 AM..
Reason: Be nicer than usual
Any kind of studs are next to useless in those conditions as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, including by me. And yet you wanted to belabor the specific "studs versus snow tires on ice" issue anyway. So as long as you want to do that, you don't get to retreat into the "but it's not even relevant" when you're called out on the "snow tires outperform studs even on ice" trope. If it's not relevant, don't even bother beating that drum.
Hey believe what you want. There is nothing I can add or say that is going to change your mind.
As I said most of the main winter tire manufacturers don't make studded tires anymore and in many states they are banned, so as the years go on it's more of a mute point, as you can have all the stud love you want, but wont be able to buy them or buy a decent brand tire anyways.
Personally in my experience, I would rather have the modern studless winter tire for all conditions, including driving on solid ice, which I have quite a bit of experience with.
There are about four southern states that prohibit studs and the best winter tire made is studdable - Nokian.
Last edited by Wilson513; 10-02-2011 at 11:17 AM..
Reason: spelling
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There is nothing I can add or say that is going to change your mind.
