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Old 11-08-2011, 06:59 PM
 
Location: north of Windsor, ON
1,900 posts, read 5,906,480 times
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Could you just use a locking gas cap? They actually go up to pickup trucks and check this stuff? I'm missing something here.
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:04 PM
 
19,023 posts, read 25,966,028 times
Reputation: 7365
Concerning red dye I am missing something. That would be clean wicks in my antique oil lamps, since that red dye is in K-1 and a powder base dye that clogs wicks and filters bad. Leave it to taxes and the Gov to frig things up. Just wait til Gov reverses this and the red dye stops trucks.
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 15,171,657 times
Reputation: 3614
Quote:
Originally Posted by us66 View Post
How do they check for that?
A couple of ways.

locking cap or not.
They can dip your tank.
Take a sample from your fuel filter.
Most diesels have a fuel water separator and or a drain on the bottom of the tank.
Then the DOT or police use paper dipsticks to test for the presence of red dye



I've heard of a ir or similar device they can test for it by your exhaust gasses?


The red dye will not clog your fuel filter.

An owner, operator, or driver of a vehicle who used dyed diesel fuel on the public highways would be subject to a civil penalty of $200 for each of the first two violations within a 12-month period. For a third violation within a 12-month period, and for each subsequent violation thereafter, the person would be subject to a civil penalty of $5,000. A vehicle owner, operator, or driver who knowingly violated the prohibition against the sale or use of dyed diesel fuel would be subject to a civil penalty equal to that imposed under Section 6714 of the Internal Revenue Code (the greater of $1,000 or $10 per gallon).

Inspections/Audits
-- Allow a uniformed inspector reasonably to detain a person, a motor vehicle, or other transporting equipment in order to determine whether the person was operating in compliance with the bill. The Department could use only uniformed inspectors when making an inspection at a highway rest stop or on the public road or highways.

A person who refused to permit any inspection or audit authorized by the bill would be subject to a civil penalty of $5,000, in addition to any other penalty imposed by the bill. A person who, for the purpose of evading taxation, refused to allow an inspection would be guilty of a felony, in addition to any other penalty imposed by the bill.
http://http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/1999-2000/billanalysis/Senate/htm/1999-SFA-1205-A.htm (http://http//www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/1999-2000/billanalysis/Senate/htm/1999-SFA-1205-A.htm - broken link)

Effective October 1, 2005, the penalties for using dyed fuel on public roads in Montana are:To report suspected
violators call
MDT's 24-hour toll free
tip line at:

What is Dyed Diesel? Dyed diesel fuel is fuel that has not been taxed and is intended for off-road use only. When you fill your vehicle with undyed fuel at the pump, state and federal taxes are included in the cost. These taxes are used to help fund construction and maintenance of Montana's public roads.
Dyed diesel fuel is regular diesel fuel that has red dye added to it. This is done to identify the fuel as non-taxed and to help enforcement officials easily identify it. Dyed diesel is for off-road use only- examples include farm equipment and home heating.
If you fill your tank with dyed diesel and drive on Montana's public roads, you're breaking the law.


18.10.108 ESTIMATE OF DIESEL POWERED VEHICLES SUPPLY TANKS
(1) When a diesel powered vehicle is found to have dyed fuel in the supply tank(s) and has been traveling on public roads, the department will assess the special fuels tax on each of the diesel powered vehicle's supply tank(s) as if the tank(s) were full.
(2) When assessing the special fuel tax on a diesel powered vehicle, the following average supply tank capacities will be used:
(a) 17 gallons for an automobile;
(b) 27 gallons for a pick-up truck;
(c) 63 gallons for a truck;
(d) 100 gallons for a combination.
(3) All assessments of the special fuel tax on diesel vehicles will be rounded for the convenience of the taxpayer and the department.
(4) The operator or owner of the vehicle may request a hearing if they disagree with the assessed amount.



(3) Motor carrier services division officers making a routine stop of a commercial vehicle or visiting a road construction project site may take a fuel sample from bulk tanks and supply tanks of vehicles, equipment and other internal combustion engines. The sample may be analyzed for dye concentration by a laboratory selected by the Montana department of transportation.


(5) Contractors may not store and/or use dyed diesel in equipment, motor vehicles, and stationary engines used upon public roads and/or within MDT project limits as defined in 15-70-321, MCA. Contractors in violation of this section are subject to penalties upon conviction as defined in 15-70-330, MCA, and may be suspended for up to 6 months from participating in future MDT contracts.



Is there a penalty for unlawful use of dyed diesel fuel?

Yes. The civil penalty is a minimum of $1,000 or $10 per gallon of fuel, based on the maximum storage capacity of the tank(s). Penalties are charged on the propulsion tanks of the vehicle as well as on any storage tanks on the vehicles. Penalties can also be charged on the storage tank at the farm if that was the source of the dyed fuel found in the vehicle. (Va. Code §58.1-2265(B))
Any person who refuses to allow an inspection or collection of a fuel sample is subject to a $5,000 penalty for each refusal. If the refusal is for a vehicle fuel sample collection, the penalty is assessed to the registered owner of the vehicle. If the refusal is for a sample to be taken from any other storage tank or container, the penalty will be payable by the owner of the storage tank or container. (Va. Code § 58.1-2267)
A person may be charged with a Class 6 felony if he or she uses dyed diesel fuel for a use that he or she knows or has reason to know is a taxable use of the fuel. Penalties can be charged if a person sells dyed diesel fuel to someone who the seller knows or has reason to know will use the fuel for a taxable purpose. If the amount of fuel is less than 20 gallons, the person may be charged with a Class 1 misdemeanor. (Va. Code § 58.1-2273(7))
A person who attempts to alter the strength or composition of any dye or dye marker in any dyed diesel fuel may be charged with a Class 6 felony. (Va. Code § 58.1-2273(8))
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:24 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,722 posts, read 58,054,000 times
Reputation: 46185
Quote:
Is there a penalty for unlawful use of dyed diesel fuel?
$9,000 fine to a farmer in WA State due to using Red Dye fuel in a 'bale wagon' that was driven on the public highway to transport hay from field to farmstead. The legislature is trying to remedy that 'erroneous' citation...)

'Dipping the tank' is done with a paper dipstick or tube collection device, red dye shows in TINY proportions.

Our local 24 hr 'off-road' pump now photographs every user. Cops are sitting down the road and also watch purchasers via closed circuit feed
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Old 11-09-2011, 01:46 PM
 
Location: U.S.A.
3,306 posts, read 12,222,868 times
Reputation: 2966
I run waste (vegetable, motor) oils through my Dodge as well as 1000's of gallons of salvaged heating oil. I have an auxiliary tank that is fully enclosed in an insulated box and set it up on a separate fuel circuit, with the flick of a switch in the cab I can seemlessly start pulling out of the aux tank. Dippers can dip all they want, the will just be dipping the pump diesel thats been sloshing around in the main tank for months.

So there is the big secret in getting around the dipping process.

I'm sure it varies state by state but is there a permit required to purchase dyed off-road diesel? My understanding is that you need some sort of agriculture permit? If so I could always have the fuel company fill up a 300 gallon tank and just pump from that into my truck. My main source so far has been donations from people getting rid of oil tanks in their home.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:30 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 29,473,840 times
Reputation: 9306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux Hauler View Post
I run waste (vegetable, motor) oils through my Dodge as well as 1000's of gallons of salvaged heating oil. I have an auxiliary tank that is fully enclosed in an insulated box and set it up on a separate fuel circuit, with the flick of a switch in the cab I can seemlessly start pulling out of the aux tank. Dippers can dip all they want, the will just be dipping the pump diesel thats been sloshing around in the main tank for months.

So there is the big secret in getting around the dipping process.

I'm sure it varies state by state but is there a permit required to purchase dyed off-road diesel? My understanding is that you need some sort of agriculture permit? If so I could always have the fuel company fill up a 300 gallon tank and just pump from that into my truck. My main source so far has been donations from people getting rid of oil tanks in their home.
You are seriously mistaken if you think that would get you off the hook if you are burning dyed fuel in your vehicle. The dye used will stain any fuel line, etc. with which it comes into contact. That staining can last from months to years--the dye is designed purposely to do that. Inspectors are trained to look for the staining in fuel lines feeding the engine, fuel filters, etc. If they find staining, bad for you.

A friend of mine is a used truck dealer. Stained fuel lines is the first thing he looks for in a diesel truck that is being traded to him. If he sees it, he flat refuses to trade for the vehicle. So, using dyed fuel may not only subject you to big fines, it may make it extremely difficult to sell the vehicle at some future point.

Besides, tax cheats aren't cheating the government--they are just cheating the other taxpayers who have to pay more to make up for what the tax cheats withhold. Cheating is cheating.
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Old 11-10-2011, 05:12 AM
 
Location: Earth
4,237 posts, read 24,780,703 times
Reputation: 2274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux Hauler View Post
I'm sure it varies state by state but is there a permit required to purchase dyed off-road diesel? My understanding is that you need some sort of agriculture permit?
It might vary by state, but my folks never had anything more than a garden in the back yard for crops.....but they did have an oil furnace that ran off of diesel. We used to buy it from the Marathon gas station up the street from us. They would bring it out to us in a big tanker truck.
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 15,171,657 times
Reputation: 3614
Yes, you can get a permit to run red dyed diesel fuel on the road.
It's is mostly giver to farmers, AG
Who need to run on the road during planting /harvest.

The permit will get them by when they get stopped.
They still have to pay road tax on the miles driven/fuel used.
They need to keep a log book.

There is also a generators lic/ permit that folks need to have when making their own fuel be it recycling wvo or wmo.

The tax man wants the money.

ps a smart dot officer will take the sample from your fuel water separator. Your not the first guy to run 2 fuel tanks.
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Old 11-10-2011, 09:26 AM
 
Location: U.S.A.
3,306 posts, read 12,222,868 times
Reputation: 2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
You are seriously mistaken if you think that would get you off the hook if you are burning dyed fuel in your vehicle. The dye used will stain any fuel line, etc. with which it comes into contact. That staining can last from months to years--the dye is designed purposely to do that. Inspectors are trained to look for the staining in fuel lines feeding the engine, fuel filters, etc. If they find staining, bad for you.

A friend of mine is a used truck dealer. Stained fuel lines is the first thing he looks for in a diesel truck that is being traded to him. If he sees it, he flat refuses to trade for the vehicle. So, using dyed fuel may not only subject you to big fines, it may make it extremely difficult to sell the vehicle at some future point.

Besides, tax cheats aren't cheating the government--they are just cheating the other taxpayers who have to pay more to make up for what the tax cheats withhold. Cheating is cheating.
I'm not mistaken at all. I am aware of all the angles. I purposely set up an entirely seperate fuel circuit with it's own lines, pump and filter. The auxiliary system is not visible and locked up. They are not going to take the truck apart piece by piece on the side of the road unless they have probable cause. Besides, explain the [visual] staining process of black fuel lining....

In the unlikely event that I were to sell the truck it would likely be to another "tax cheating" alternative fuel enthusiast so i'm not too worried. Again, unlikely... the truck has just about paid for itself in fuel savings and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.
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Old 11-10-2011, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Northern MN
3,869 posts, read 15,171,657 times
Reputation: 3614
Go ahead and refuse them and see what happens.
Your on the "public" streets you have lost your presumption of privacy. The dot could even tow you to the impound lot.
They don't even need suspicion, let alone PC, all they need is a diesel engine..
I've watched them go threw the parking at the cattle auctions looking for red fuel.

Inspections/Audits
-- Allow a uniformed inspector reasonably to detain a person, a motor vehicle, or other transporting equipment in order to determine whether the person was operating in compliance with the bill. The Department could use only uniformed inspectors when making an inspection at a highway rest stop or on the public road or highways.

A person who refused to permit any inspection or audit authorized by the bill would be subject to a civil penalty of $5,000, in addition to any other penalty imposed by the bill. A person who, for the purpose of evading taxation, refused to allow an inspection would be guilty of a felony, in addition to any other penalty.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux Hauler View Post


I'm not mistaken at all. I am aware of all the angles. I purposely set up an entirely seperate fuel circuit with it's own lines, pump and filter. The auxiliary system is not visible and locked up. They are not going to take the truck apart piece by piece on the side of the road unless they have probable cause. Besides, explain the [visual] staining process of black fuel lining....

In the unlikely event that I were to sell the truck it would likely be to another "tax cheating" alternative fuel enthusiast so i'm not too worried. Again, unlikely... the truck has just about paid for itself in fuel savings and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.
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